Officer Training

Discussion in 'The Quarterdeck' started by janner, Mar 5, 2011.

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  1. janner

    janner War Hero Book Reviewer

    At the risk of sounding like Norman do we really need three different officer training establishments with the size of todays Armed Forces?

    I would suggest that either Officers are trained at their services main rating training school or a single establishment be set up for all Officer training but with four separate areas within it for RN/RM/Army/RAF.

    Savings would be hugh with income obtained from selling off redundant sites (Dartmouth alone must be worth a fortune as building land.)
  2. A very sensible idea.
    I am certain that Sandhurst would be worth a fortune if sold with planning permission. Would have to stop the usual company that seem
    to buy ALL the ex married quarters for a song and then sells for a kings ransome from getting first chance and sell on the open market.
    training would still be high quality even if the pongos, crabs and matelots were trained at the same establishment.
    make it someqwhere central that the services already own though.
  3. The RAF would never go for a tri-service officer training establishment, simply because if they did they'd have no officers complete the training.

    The mlaaring chav, tracksuit wearing scumbags would get found out when thrown in with proper officers.

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  4. Most RN and RAF officer cadets couldn't cut it at Sandhurst. It's an infantry-based course and the fairies would cry off
  5. janner

    janner War Hero Book Reviewer

    I wasn't thinking of the training for each Service being any different from how it is now.

    Think of it as a basic parimeter with three/four separate establishment in it. The more I think of it the more ridiculous it seems to have the three separate sites, when you look at the numbers going through each of them now as opposed to even a few years ago its an expensive way of doing things.

    With the RN having shrunk from having an separate establishment for virtually every branch down to two(?) for ratings I feel that its time that the Officer structure should be looked at.

    Does anyone know what Cramwell, Sandhurst and Dartmouth cost to run each year?
  6. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

    I have to agree, but I'd also add that most RN Officers (especially the type we get in the doors now - spent 2 years on the staff) wouldn't hack Cranwell as that has a far bigger physical/tactical element to it.

    All three Services run their IOT with, unsurprisingly, very different ethos and that in itself would be a hurdle - not a unsrmountable one though!

    As we get smaller, and we will get smaller ever more, the cost/benefit alone of maintaining three separate locations may well dictate a further review but I'd guess that you'd perhaps have one central IOT site then separate specific sites for secondary to role training.

    Oddly enough there is an Enhancement option running at the moment in PR11 which looks at creating an Initial Naval Training site (Navy & Marines, all ranks???), but there is no way in hell that will fly as its guaranteed that all enhancement options will fail.

    Dartmouth itself is a major problem for developers, planning permission, listed buildings, heritage commission constraints. Lots have looked but most walk away.
  7. The Defence Training Review re-affirmed the need for separate single-service initial training; mainly in order to inculcate service ethos before being exposed to the wider "joint"* area. I would suggest that we could combine RMAS and an Army Training Regiment, and BRNC and RALEIGH (I don't care about the RAF!), but various reactionary types at both Senior Officer and Senior Rating/NCO levels would probably be aghast....

    *"joint" spelled "ARMY", pronounced "Land"......
  8. Rubbish. As much as I enjoy bantering our officer corps, they are far and away superior to anything that leaves Cranwell. I currently work with not so shiny new, phase 2 RAF officers and am consistently amazed at how far away from RN and Army officers these Chavbags are.

    Physical or not, most would adapt. You can't however teach a council estate shitbag who thinks he's Jay-z to be a good lieutenant or captain.

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  9. That was a thing of beauty mate!
  10. The DTR mentioned above unreservedly noted CTCRM as the single most cost effective piece of trg real estate in the country. This is due to the trg system in place training from Ph 1 to Ph 3 for rcts, officers, NCOs and specialists and the subsequent uptake of resources. I know that at one time ISC provided over 31, 000 man days of trg and trg sp per year.

    Where would the Enhancement (cost saving) come?

  11. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

    MLP you'd be amazed, or more likely saddened, by the queues outside our doors (as DOs/SDOs) when it came time for MARL/ACE and the like; whines and whinges about having to do anything remotely physical. I think as Defence gets smaller a joint training environment will become a reality, but because we will more likely be the smaller ratio the setup will more likely include the more physical/greener aspects that our recruits will not like.

    It's interesting your view on the Crabettes; where I work we watch with interest their machinations as they truely are a remarkably effective politik breed, constantly seeking out wider opportunties for the Crabs to make their own. One of my old Cpls has succesfully passed Cranwell and JROC and is now out in the sandpit and we keep in touch, I'm constantly amazed at how he now views the world ready to defend any minute slur on his service. In that respect we could learn a lot!

    Your latter point is excellent and definately applies to all three services; RCB maintains the Army standard very well, AIB has made some shockers.....; Cranwell? any service that lets people eat dinner in the mess, on their knees whilst watching TV....ugh!
  12. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

    DTR, a thing of beauty, great ideas, great concepts but requires soooo much money (that we don't have) to deliver and with the St Athan project in the bin, they're back to the drawing board. Not a good time to be DCDS PERS (good time to buy a cheap property in the Vale of Glamorgan though!!)

    Didn't get your last question - but I suspect you mean from the Enhancement option what is it meant to deliver? I honestly don't know the full detail, but I believe it was to look at the BRNC/RALEIGH/CTC construct and deliver the same services across a smaller footprint, at less cost in light of the diminishing training requirement. Never said it would work nor was a good idea, it just shows someone is thinking....
  13. Lets not beat around the bush, nearly all of the RN would be like that. Our attitude to phys (and arduous training in general) is lamentable. I offer up the RNFT, and people's attitudes to it and how we mock people who want to do courses like AACC or P Coy.

    I know several XO and WO potentials who've ruled themselves out simply because they can't put out the effort to run 2.4km in less than 13 minutes. And what's more, they're proud of it. At a lower level, how many DOs (both in the Fleet and at Phase 1/2 establishments) run the RNFT with their division on a regular basis? (and that's not aimed at W_D!) I've had lots of PO/CPO (mainly from the ME Branch to be honest) who've claimed they're perfectly fit enough to do their job, despite failing their RNFT and approaching a size where they can't get through a kidney hatch: apparently being able to suck an EDBA down in 30 minutes is good enough.

    Our attitude to AACC and P Coy is also illustrative. I make no claims that doing either of those courses will make you better at heaving ropes and wires or filling in the catering account. But it will explore the limits of your physical and mental robustness (even - especially - if you fail), which could only be a good thing. Instead, we spend our entire time belittling recruits (both Officer and Rating) and trained personnel who express an interest in doing it. Compare this to the Army's attitude, where nearly every CS and CSS Regiment/Corp make a special point of your ability to do either of the 2 main courses once you are in. I've found out to my cost that even expressing an interest in doing AACC (or P Coy) immediately reduces your credibility as a "proper Naval Officer".

    These attitudes also have a common theme in the intellectual sphere - the very thought of wanting to be better academically qualified is met with horror from COs and Career Managers alike....
  14. Clearly they could learn to pass the port at just one establishment. Instructing the sailors to sit down and for the brown jobs of field rank and above to say "God bless her" shouldn't be too difficult. That the cardinal points of the compass might confuse can surely be overcome.

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