Officer Recruitment - new direct entry policy

veryparttimer

Midshipman
I was implying leadership in that. The AIB does pass some people who you would only follow out of curiosity, but beacuse little (if any) time is spent on the lower deck the two combine to cause problems. My belief (and I will probably get pilloried for it!) is that all JOs should spend time on the lower deck and contribute to mess life as only then will they understand the different views of and between ranks and rates and act accordingly.
 

WarMonger

War Hero
veryparttimer said:
I was implying leadership in that. The AIB does pass some people who you would only follow out of curiosity, but beacuse little (if any) time is spent on the lower deck the two combine to cause problems. My belief (and I will probably get pilloried for it!) is that all JOs should spend time on the lower deck and contribute to mess life as only then will they understand the different views of and between ranks and rates and act accordingly.

You shouldnt get pillaried, because its a bloody good idea one that I have always thought would add strength to JO's. For the first couple of years they should intergrate with the Junior Rates rather than being hastenend to the surreal world of the wardrobe....for those with any knowledge of Star Trek I have always likened the wardroom to a BORG mothership...where halfwitted SLUTs are added to the collective to bolster its general lack of common sense and grip on reality..!!!

However when it comes to the wardroom remember...RESISTANCE IS GENERALLY FUTILE!!!
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
WarMonger said:
You shouldnt get pillaried, because its a bloody good idea one that I have always thought would add strength to JO's. For the first couple of years they should intergrate with the Junior Rates rather than being hastenend to the surreal world of the wardrobe....

Isnt this an area of differnce between the RN and the RNR. In the RN, don't OUTs go to sea on their Initial Sea Training with no officer status? While in the RNR, it is possible to enter the hallowed portals of the wardroom without ever having seen the "shitty end of the stick" for real. Spending NE training in the JRs mess is not enough, IMHO.

WarMonger said:
....for those with any knowledge of Star Trek I have always likened the wardroom to a BORG mothership...where halfwitted SLUTs are added to the collective to bolster its general lack of common sense and grip on reality..!!!

However when it comes to the wardroom remember...RESISTANCE IS GENERALLY FUTILE!!!

:) So when are GSSR getting their personal issue phasers then?
 

navs

Midshipman
I don’t think there is a problem with an OC or JO being part of the Wardroom from day one, but it is important that they work with and do some training with the JRs and others. That mix of practical experience, seeing different tasks from different angles and being able to put yourself in someone else’s position when you are making decisions later on in life is extremely valuable. The MN Officer Cadet system usually has a Deck Cadet spending his/her first sea phase or first trip working on deck with the Bosun/ABs before understudying the Officers later on in training. No system is perfect but it’s worked well for a long time. Also I don’t think Direct Entry Candidates should be put forward for an AIB before they are properly prepared and have some experience of the RNR from being an OC.
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
navs said:
I don’t think there is a problem with an OC or JO being part of the Wardroom from day one, but it is important that they work with and do some training with the JRs and others. That mix of practical experience, seeing different tasks from different angles and being able to put yourself in someone else’s position when you are making decisions later on in life is extremely valuable.

The experience you talk of is invalvuable in knocking the corners off "difficult" individuals, i.e. those who put on air and graces from day 1 and unwilling to consider the viewpoint of the JR or experience of the SR.

Sadly the RNR cannot offer the necessary mix of experience within a unit and this results in all S/Lts being tarred with the same brush, i.e. in general they're all immature, power-crazy, admirals-in-waiting who look down on everyone outside the wardroom!

navs said:
The MN Officer Cadet system usually has a Deck Cadet spending his/her first sea phase or first trip working on deck with the Bosun/ABs before understudying the Officers later on in training. No system is perfect but it’s worked well for a long time. Also I don’t think Direct Entry Candidates should be put forward for an AIB before they are properly prepared and have some experience of the RNR from being an OC.

When I started in engineering, I spent a fair amount of time on the factory floor, working alongside the people who would subsequently be working for me, albeit indirectly. This practial based experience gave me many useful lessons that I'd never get from school or college.

A few years ago I had a junior engineer join my team straight from college - he'd graduated top of his course yet had never ever worked in engineering before joining my team; in all honesty he was a total nightmare who believed that I was privileged to be his manager and that because he was so brilliant academically he could immediately be regarded as a fully qualified professional engineer capable of making major decisions without any further training or experience!

While this case was an extreme example, I'm afraid I've come across analogous people within the RNR. As has been said, the AIB is not perfect -unfortunately, the RNR does not provide enough multi-rank/rate practical environments to allow the new JOs to gain exposure to the full breadth of the naval service.
 
Now, FW, I KNOW you've worked with Subbies for whom that doesn't apply!

Some people do listen to their senior rates, Chiefs and POs when they're S/Lts. They even buy them the odd beer.
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
Reservist-Monkey said:
Now, FW, I KNOW you've worked with Subbies for whom that doesn't apply!

Some people do listen to their senior rates, Chiefs and POs when they're S/Lts. They even buy them the odd beer.

Or make them the odd coffee in a RSIGS CP? :)

On this occasion, 3 Lts, 1 S/Lt, 1 CPO and 1 PO took part in a joint exercise - the Subby looked at the massed ranks of dark blue personnel ranged before him and said: "I can see how this is going to work: 3 Lts, me a subby, 1 Chief and a PO; the chain of command is quite clear - how do you like your coffee chief?".

Granted not all subbies are power crazed martinets, but there are some (too many) that are...... if the cap fits..... :twisted:
 

u8dmtm

Midshipman
Hasn't this thread missed one vital point, which is civilian experience?

I'm applying to (re)join the RNR via DEO and hope that some of my leadership and management skills from my day job might be useful - primarily by way of the fact that I line manage people old enough to be my Dad who are very experienced in their roles. Simply because I manage / lead them doesn't make me exempt from making them a coffee or making a decision based on listening to and acting on their advice - something I do every day because you can't learn experience and only a fool ignores it when it's offered.

For me at least, it really has nothing at all to do with "power", surely the DEO scheme exists so that the RNR can access a source of skilled and practiced civilian managers and leaders and utilise these skills straight away in the same way as they do with medical skills etc. Such civilian leaders don't wear uniforms which highlight hierarchy and don't work in disciplined services, therefore respect and willingness to be lead have to be earned every day and there is little in the way to stop someone you line-manage making your job very hard if you don't.

Just as a foot-note, would it not be better to judge each individual on merit? That's what I would ask for, and what I would give.
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
u8dmtm said:
Hasn't this thread missed one vital point, which is civilian experience?

I'm applying to (re)join the RNR via DEO and hope that some of my leadership and management skills from my day job might be useful - primarily by way of the fact that I line manage people old enough to be my Dad who are very experienced in their roles. Simply because I manage / lead them doesn't make me exempt from making them a coffee or making a decision based on listening to and acting on their advice - something I do every day because you can't learn experience and only a fool ignores it when it's offered.

For me at least, it really has nothing at all to do with "power", surely the DEO scheme exists so that the RNR can access a source of skilled and practiced civilian managers and leaders and utilise these skills straight away in the same way as they do with medical skills etc. Such civilian leaders don't wear uniforms which highlight hierarchy and don't work in disciplined services, therefore respect and willingness to be lead have to be earned every day and there is little in the way to stop someone you line-manage making your job very hard if you don't.

Agreed, however, take it from me, in the last 22 years I have witnessed some extremely arrogant members of the wardroom who were not leaders in any sense of the word, either in a military or civilian environment; its these people that my criticisms are aimed at. I accept that there are also a number of individuals who are able to slot into the wardroom on day 1 and who know how to deal with JRs and SRs. Taking nothing away from these individuals, what will be missing in the RNR environment will be the fact that these people will not be seen to have the shared experience that is part of the RN JO training and that used to be an integral element in the old 10MCM days.

u8dmtm said:
Just as a foot-note, would it not be better to judge each individual on merit? That's what I would ask for, and what I would give.

Agreed - my comments are generalisations, and as I've said here before. all generalisations tend to be wrong all of the time :)
 

Dangermouse

Badgeman
Whether they join via NE or go direct to the Wardroom, it must be remembered that its is incumbent upon the rest of the Officers to ensure that S/Lts are properly trained and that includes leadership and the right attitude to the value and experience of the SRs and JRs they serve with.

And personally I have absolutely no problem with a SR or Killick putting a JO in their place, IF they need to.

Its not what you wear on your sleeve or shoulder, its how you use it. Teamwork is vital in just about everything we do and every member of the team is vital too. There is no place for arrogance, only professionalism.
 

firefawkes

Midshipman
navalgazer said:
Firefawkes
Hope it's not too late, but the Direct Entry System details are out, and the system is essentially AFCO managed.
Entrants will have nothing to do with the RNR prior to AIB. After a pass at AIB they are Acting Sub Lt and go straight to the Wardroom.

Thanks for that Navalgazer. :)

I’m pleased to see that it is consistent with what I’ve been told so far by the AFCO. However, these few details appear to be the sum total of the information currently available on Direct Entry within the RNR! Any other queries I have posed to the AFCO have been met with ‘It’s a new scheme - we don’t know much about it’, and “You’ll need to ask at your unitâ€. This would be fine if my unit had all the details, but they don’t! I know that DEO was only introduced at the start of August, but what is the point of launching a new scheme before the AFCOs and RTUs have been given any details about it and why, 3 months after the launch, is there still a lack of information? :roll:

I now have my dates for AIB, so we’ll see what happens after that!
 

veryparttimer

Midshipman
u8dmtm said:
Hasn't this thread missed one vital point, which is civilian experience?

I agree that this is an element, but we have had some fresh from uni types with no real world experience but an AIB pass and therefore a stripe; as people are thrown into the mix without having to do BRNC immediately, they can lack all the basic skills.
 

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