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NW Mail: Will women be employed on Barrow built submarines?

FunkyJunky

War Hero
thing is, if they FORCE this in..what next...the frontline intfantry/RM etc will be next..

im not sexits what so ever, but a realist and lived the life on a submarine (and have been on a surface ship)...they are worlds apart...for reasons that are obvious
 
snorko said:
So: The current BAE assumption is that accommodation would be mixed messing - yup. I do not believe that we are "enlightened" enough yet for that to work. The same assumption is also being used for Future Deterrent. There would be no separate Female Heads/Showers - only about 5 showers on board as it is!!!

The messing arrangements on S/T/A boats are clearly prohibitive to having females; however the V boats have a separate mess with on suite heads. I was once told they were built for that express purpose, though I don’t know how true that is.

snorko said:
San Towels. Cannot go in the heads as the macerator units would break. Therefore need a san towel bin. However there is no gash gun anymore so they would need to be compacted - yup - and then stored with the rest of the gash - that is one job you would not get me doing in the garbo - bodily fluids in the garbo - no thanks. So how do we deal with period products - no idea but answers on a postcard appreciated.

The sanitary towel issue is IMHO a non-starter. Yes, they would block the heads and the Ms AB Idiot who did it would get the same bollocking that Mr AB Idiot would get for a similar offence. As you say, ditching or compacting is not an option. So, storage then. I would imagine as it contains body fluids, bagging and tagging as ‘clinical waste’ for disposal alongside would probably be necessary. That idea might need refinement, but if we presume to have the logistical capability and wit to fight wars, I really hope we would have the ability to come up with a solution to unwanted sanitary towels.

snorko said:
So I can see the following issues issues: Messing and "female products", showers, as well as pregnancy/radiotion/patrol breaking.

I can see it happening, but there are serious issues that need addressing.

The radiation issue is a bigger problem and is related to the other of having sex while at sea, i.e. if she gets pregnant without knowing it, would the foetus be damaged by the background radiation levels? I don’t know, but I would want to see research either way and I can’t see the MOD allowing women at sea until it’s resolved. The simple answer would be for any woman serving on boats to be on some form of contraceptive, but getting a statement to that effect would probably be illegal, so won’t happen.

Whatever decision is taken is going to piss-off one group or another and is likely to come under very close scrutiny, so my suggestion to the decision makers would be not to try and bullshit and making sure the reasoning doesn't boil down to prejudice.
 

lonestar

War Hero
Re: NW Mail: Will women be employed on Barrow built submarin

Was the justification for the change in US position not that new research showed early medical concerns had proved unwarranted and therefore it was now thought to be a safe environment?
 

soleil

War Hero
Re: NW Mail: Will women be employed on Barrow built submarin

Re the feminine hygiene question - would the used product not be processed in the same way as used tissue is in the heads?

It occurs to me that the volume of product would actually be quite small; there might only be a few females on board - they would only have a need for the product every four or so weeks - quite a few of them might not actually use towels (many women don't) but tampax, so the volume would be even smaller than you think.

To be honest, it's not uncommon for professional women nowadays to take the pill without a break for a few months and then take a break for a period at a convenient time. If I were, say a Warfare Officer SM, I would do this. If there were others doing the same, volume of product for disposal would drop even lower.

Purely playing devil's advocate incidentally.
 
I dunno, but it would be good to have the issue resolved one way or another. It always seemed to me that radiation was used as a difficult to refute excuse rather than a scientifically sound reason.
 
Re: NW Mail: Will women be employed on Barrow built submarin

soleil said:
To be honest, it's not uncommon for professional women nowadays to take the pill without a break for a few months and then take a break for a period at a convenient time. If I were, say a Warfare Officer SM, I would do this.

Purely playing devil's advocate incidentally.

They might, and if they wanted to serve on boats would possibly be quite willing to say so, but it would be construed as encroaching on a womans right to control her own fertility to require her to be on some form of contraception in order to serve on boats.

Oh, and the sanitary towel thing. A big dump and some bog tissue will (and does) block the heads.
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
I couldn't sleep last night, I kept getting flash backs of "getting your own back " on the old A Boats. Or has the system improved to cut them out.

Soliel, in my day it took very little to block the system, this was the reason that Submariners got to use soft soluble toilet tissue whislt Skimmers used Izal wipe and spread

I still go back to the question of how many woman would want to serve and do those numbers make any expenditure on living changes worthwhile? Or would they be fully integrated into the service and drafted in?
 

IB08

Lantern Swinger
FunkyJunky said:
thing is, if they FORCE this in..what next...the frontline intfantry/RM etc will be next..

im not sexits what so ever, but a realist and lived the life on a submarine (and have been on a surface ship)...they are worlds apart...for reasons that are obvious
Bollocks. Women will never be integrated into RM/infantry units. There are lots of females serving with infantry units, however, just with other capbadges. Are you are serving person Junky? Your comment smacks of ignorance. I think that women will be allowed on submarines in the future, though.
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
often on patrols a routine is in place of the "plop and flush"...meaning

only flush the loo if you leave some large kids in the pool..other than that, you DONT flush..this can be in place for many days/weeks...

the systems will NOT take sanitry towels..simple as that..they have enough trouble with turds as it is
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
Re: NW Mail: Will women be employed on Barrow built submarin

why would women not be allowed to serve within RM units...have you ever served ona submarine..?..if you have, you would know that what I have written is far from ignorance


why cant a female be given the OPTION of trying for the PRMC....trust me, that will be next once the submarine service in conquored
 

lonestar

War Hero
IB08 said:
FunkyJunky said:
thing is, if they FORCE this in..what next...the frontline intfantry/RM etc will be next..

im not sexits what so ever, but a realist and lived the life on a submarine (and have been on a surface ship)...they are worlds apart...for reasons that are obvious

Bollocks. Women will never be integrated into RM/infantry units. There are lots of females serving with infantry units, however, just with other capbadges.

Are you are serving person Junky? Your comment smacks of ignorance.

I think that women will be allowed on submarines in the future, though.

If you are going to accuse someone of talking bollocks then at least come up with a good argument as to why. You cannot on the one hand point out that women are currently serving on the front line in a number of roles attached to front line units but then say they will NEVER be integrated into those units as standard. The official review into this very issue reported back that there was little reason to keep the restrictions on women in place and that it should be lifted in the near future. Just because it has not yet been actioned does not make it any less likely in the future.

You then make a throwaway remark about the fact you think women will serve on submarines, why are the two moves so different in your opinion. Strikes me there are an awful lot more logistical and technical changes that would need to be made for women to serve on boats than for them to serve alongside men in infantry units.
 

Joe_Crow

War Hero
The problems of disposing of sanitary towels and tampons is not really the issue, as there are methods of dealing with this waste (for all classes of boat). What is is still unchanged is the official reason for not allowing women to serve in UK boats, that of the unknown effects of raised carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere on the development of a foetus.
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
sanitry towells may be a non starter..but the little things on board very quickly become big things...the heads die, you are along side..simple as that..

would girls mind washing themselves with a wet wipe for a week at a time whilst on their cycle..?
if we dont ditch gash at sea anymore..where do said bloody rags go...? sealed or not, it is ******* disgusting
I would not expect to have to stow a bag of human shit and live with it on board..nor would I want to live with a bag of used sanitry towells..

again also, will go back to the fact that on a ship, the ladies and gents are "nobbing" each other at an alarming rate (not all obviously) and it CAN and sometimes does cause no end of issues....that will do end of harm to the OC of a submarine IMO...no hiding places, no quiet spots no way of keeping out of the way..

easily to say, be professional and NOT do it...the same was said on a ship way back when...

again, these day to day issues will cause the SM service to decline IMO...
 
FunkyJunky said:
again also, will go back to the fact that on a ship, the ladies and gents are "nobbing" each other at an alarming rate (not all obviously) and it CAN and sometimes does cause no end of issues....that will do end of harm to the OC of a submarine IMO...no hiding places, no quiet spots no way of keeping out of the way..

Oh I dunno, it would make the Air Ram Space more interesting. :)
 

snorko

Lantern Swinger
Trust me, there would be no Sha99ing in the ATP on an A boat!!! 1 it is right under 3 bunks, 2 it is really quite tight!!

Anyway, as the research into atmospheric contaminants is taking place, as is that into radiation effects, I can foresee it occurring in time. But there are still logistical difficulties on A boats. On V boats the issues revolve around whether we can get and retain enough ladies to fill a bunk space - otherwise you are back to mixed messing. If you anly have 7 women on board then they cant fill a 16 man space.
 

R12_CV

Lantern Swinger
FunkyJunky said:
often on patrols a routine is in place of the "plop and flush"...meaning
only flush the loo if you leave some large kids in the pool..other than that, you DONT flush..this can be in place for many days/weeks...
the systems will NOT take sanitry towels..simple as that..they have enough trouble with turds as it is

:D Or in the immortal words of Meet the Fockers...

'If its yellow, let it mellow. If its brown, flush it down!'
 

soleil

War Hero
Re: NW Mail: Will women be employed on Barrow built submarin

I was thinking about this issue earlier today and found myself thinking about the idea of an all-female crew and thought I had read that such a thing existed elsewhere in the world.

However, I realised that there was a very real flaw in my idea and it is this.

When you consider the hierarchical structure of the crew, it's obvious that as you look further towards the apex, you are looking at personnel who have increasing levels of experience on boats. Of course, some of the crew will have just completed Phase 2; but the majority will have come on board with many years of service behind them. You could only have an all-female crew if you had women on board who had sufficient experience to occupy the positions towards the top of the hierarchy and to do that, they would have to have served on a mixed boat.

Ergo, it is a concept which wouldn't be possible until sufficient women had risen to a sufficiently high level. That could be two decades away.
 

lonestar

War Hero
snorko said:
Trust me, there would be no Sha99ing in the ATP on an A boat!!! 1 it is right under 3 bunks, 2 it is really quite tight!!

Anyway, as the research into atmospheric contaminants is taking place, as is that into radiation effects, I can foresee it occurring in time. But there are still logistical difficulties on A boats. On V boats the issues revolve around whether we can get and retain enough ladies to fill a bunk space - otherwise you are back to mixed messing. If you anly have 7 women on board then they cant fill a 16 man space.

On an average patrol, how many new JR's doing their BSQ do you have? Obviously in the first instance all 16 new females would be in that position, is this about in line with normal numbers or would it present a problem?
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
lonestar said:
On an average patrol, how many new JR's doing their BSQ do you have? Obviously in the first instance all 16 new females would be in that position, is this about in line with normal numbers or would it present a problem?


Speaking on an SSN front..when they do a patrol it usually (well, always) means taking "extra" crew that would not normally go on a submarine...so trainee spaces for the newbies are quite limited..as not only do you have to cater for the "extra" crew, you also have your own qualified crew who need to go, EG, the back afties who have to constantly stay in date for various things..
 

2_deck_dash

War Hero
Re: NW Mail: Will women be employed on Barrow built submarin

soleil said:
I was thinking about this issue earlier today and found myself thinking about the idea of an all-female crew and thought I had read that such a thing existed elsewhere in the world.

However, I realised that there was a very real flaw in my idea and it is this.

When you consider the hierarchical structure of the crew, it's obvious that as you look further towards the apex, you are looking at personnel who have increasing levels of experience on boats. Of course, some of the crew will have just completed Phase 2; but the majority will have come on board with many years of service behind them. You could only have an all-female crew if you had women on board who had sufficient experience to occupy the positions towards the top of the hierarchy and to do that, they would have to have served on a mixed boat.

Ergo, it is a concept which wouldn't be possible until sufficient women had risen to a sufficiently high level. That could be two decades away.

Also don't women all....er.....how shall I put this?.......Synchronise when they are living in close quarters?

That is gonna be one angry boat once a month.
 
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