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Non-Tech branches to adopt the rate of WO2

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
It's an interesting point that Sir Michael Betts recommended we (ALL arms of the forces) had too many grades in our management structure.

At the time it was fleetingly considered combining the rate of PO & CPO.

I tended to agree that from AB to the Commanding Officer of a ship (for example) there only needs to be about 4 or 5 "grades" or rank as used in the equivalent civilian management structure.

It's interesting that it is now being considered introducing even more sub-divided ranks.
 

Chaz

MIA
snorkypig said:
As for the old WO2 introduction for non tech branches. Why do it? it will cost them more in pension payouts.Higher spine cpo's can now earn the exact same pay as WO2 techs anyway.

A CPO, Non-tech can earn more than a CPO Tech, us CPO Tech's are capped at level 7, non-tech's can go onto level nine. I believe (I maybe wrong?) that all CPO's (on AFPS 75 pension) get the same pension (asuuming they have served the same amount of time) regardless of higher/lower pay band or indeed increment level.
 

Karma

War Hero
Ninja_Stoker said:
It's an interesting point that Sir Michael Betts recommended we (ALL arms of the forces) had too many grades in our management structure.

Frankly I'd agree, although I'd note that we in the RN essentially feed three organisations who use our people; ships, DE&S (Procurement and Logistics support) and the so called Higher Management of Defence which each have different requirements and different hierarchical structures.

I tended to agree that from AB to the Commanding Officer of a ship (for example) there only needs to be about 4 or 5 "grades" or rank as used in the equivalent civilian management structure.

If you consider the average ship as somewhat bigger than the majority of Small to Medium Enterprises in the UK I'd think we're not too bad, although I'd say that the management layers don't actually reflect the range of ranks and rates in use. There is a degree of overlap at the SR/ JO interface and we also need to accept that we have to have some overhead for developing people without considering them as still trainees.

Personally I wouldn't consider OOWs as part of the management chain, and to an extent the Engineer departments and Logs department could survive without Lieutenants, although that begs the question of where you grow Lt Cdrs from.

I'd consider the EWO as on a par with the Lts in the structure,

You could argue a merge of CPO/ PO or PO/ LH, but not both, IMHO.

In the HQ sense if you consider WOs, Lts and Lt Cdrs as delivery and Cdrs as supervisory you could probably cull the Captains and frankly the 2 stars as well. that would certainly reduce the amount of nugatory gash produced there and reduce interference.

It's interesting that it is now being considered introducing even more sub-divided ranks.

I've watched this debate with some interest. I see little operational value in the move, but I suspect it's galley range quality.

the only benefit I can see is in retention and reward, noting that I don't consider a promotion a reward. Given that we're offering a lengthy career there needs to be some clear progression, and removing ranks would need some other form of giving people a monetary reward for their performance. That leads us straight down the path of personal pay settlements, uncapped. that's an interesting proposition, but I'm not convinced it would be good for our ethos or culture.
 

flipflop

Midshipman
I'm a WO1 at FLEET. I have just spoken to the WO Promotions office and JSWOC section.
It has been looked at and rejected by the RN and RAF.
 
I

In_my_day

Guest
Ninja_Stoker said:
It's an interesting point that Sir Michael Betts recommended we (ALL arms of the forces) had too many grades in our management structure.

I tended to agree that from AB to the Commanding Officer of a ship (for example) there only needs to be about 4 or 5 "grades" or rank as used in the equivalent civilian management structure.
Interesting but at 4 ranks you have the CO; and presumably a 2IC; and the AB, that leaves one rank for the rest of the ship's company. If the 2IC is the same rank as the rest of the middle management presumably you rely on his appointment to invest his authority. However appointers being disappointers, does that mean he can be moved to a less senior position for his next job (every 2 years perhaps unlike his civilian counterpart who may spend 15 years acquiring his skills in the same job)? Will he receive the correct level of Command and Staff trg to drive the ship, with the resulting Operational experience, but be subordinate to a less experienced man in his next role? The same would apply to all the; formerly; SRs and LHs. Assuming that the lower deck get 3 levels of responsibilty on a 5 level ship, how do you ensure that everyone gets the correct trg for the job he's in? Easy, you over train everyone at some stage of their career! Then of course we come to the drafty's role. Hey there's no shortage of LHs we've got hundreds, send Johnny; even though the job he's going to was formerly that of a senior PO, but they no longer exist. That empty PO billet send Billy, he's the same rank (even though yesterday he was a B13 Chief tiff WO navy type job thingy, but they don't exist anymore).
Tongue in cheek perhaps but a perfect example of how workable civilian models cannot always be applied directly to the military.
 

scabz

Lantern Swinger
snorkypig said:
On the subject of a foundation degree for ET's you will not actually get a foundation degree until you complete cpoet course not as suggested Poet course. <snipped>
The Tech branches get an FD by doing an optional "top up" academic module attached to the POET's course (optional if you get high enough marks on the first bits in the POETQC, otherwise you don't get offered the opportunity to do the module).
 
Just a little different point of view, don`t take offence, is it that the people joining to-day don`t have the same education standards as the old tiffs did? Just a thought.
 

London

Midshipman
flipflop said:
I'm a WO1 at FLEET. I have just spoken to the WO Promotions office and JSWOC section.
It has been looked at and rejected by the RN and RAF.

What has been rejected? WO2 for the RAF?
 
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