Nimrod Crash Inquiry Report

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by fishhead, Oct 28, 2009.

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    The report is damning,14 lives lost over something preventable.Names have been named.Will heads roll. :?: Will anyone be shamed enough to resign. :?: I for one am not holding my breath.
  2. The shiny arse brigade in the MOD, RAF and BAE Systems resign or be shamed, there is as much chance of that as there is for a snowball in hell. These are the bean-counters who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

    At least no one can say this report is a whitewash and what a refreshing change that makes, Charles Haddon-Cave, QC has done a fantastic job in putting out the true facts and in naming those responsible for this avoidable tragedy.
  3. Seadog

    Seadog War Hero Moderator

    In Mr Haddon-Cave's report

    Engineers across Defence who take their professional ethics seriously would agree, souls are being sold-literally.
  4. Some of us in the MoD (Granted, I work for the RN) want to get it right. With the team that I have working for and with me, I am going to do it!

    Watch this space ;)
  5. Lets call a spade a spade here. The MoD can only spend what is given to them by government and are told they still have to move that pile of sand from here to there even though their shovels have been taken away.

    So lets put the main cause at the man at the top whose orders were being obeyed.
  6. Almost true
    Though none of them had the balls to speak up, so are as guilty as bliar and prudence his chancellor

    Jack McH
  7. What I witnessed in the mob was for every MEO who turned round and said no this is not safe we cant do it,there was always a dozen in the wings waiting to say I can,two incidents that spring to mind both ended in fires! Just reminded me of another one that meant a three week work package.
    Maybe if all such incidents were investigated like this one these men could still be alive.

    RIP lads,your duty is done
  8. Oh.My.God.

    Just finished reading the report (587 pages). This will be THE topic of discussion at work tomorrow. Absolutely thorough and damning examination of the MoD with regard to IPTs, Airworthiness, budget cuts, procurement, "can-do" attitudes. It even criticises BAE and QinetiQ for failings in manufacture and testing.

    The fact that a few names have been names actually pales into insignificance when you read the whole report. 2 names are missing though:-

    Blair - for getting us into wars that we were not provisioned for under 1998 SDR
    Brown - for systematic cuts in the Defence budget since SDR

    One thing that is praised throughout the report is Defence Nuclear Safety. That makes me feel a lot better about coming across from the FAA to the MESM branch - and at the right time too, it would seem! There looks like there are going to be significant changes in the WAFU world.
  9. I know the Nimrod has been much modified/updated, but you are still dealing with a basic airframe and design getting on for 70 years old, surely that must cause limitations and problems in itself.
    Yes, I know the Boeing equivalent is almost as ancient but it has been continuously updated.
    If the RAF are still using VC10s the same limitations must apply, along with the L1011s; fifties and sixties technology.
    Leaving aside the political interference the very age of these designs must be causing enormous problems.
  10. The defence secratry states. and i quote:-

    Mr Ainsworth also said that the two officers still serving in the RAF, who are strongly criticised in the report, have been moved to staff posts which have no responsibility for safety and airworthiness

    I beg to differ lofty. The man in charge of Nimrod ITP who has since been prmoted to Air Cmdre is head of the Air Systems Directorate.

    His remit being:-

    In my current role as head of the Air Systems Directorate, I have visibility of all DE&S projects involving aircraft, air launched weapons and aeronautical products. In administering the MOD’s Design Approved Organisation Scheme (see DAOS web site for detail of what this is) I have a unique insight to a wide range of aerospace companies and MOD design organisations, their capabilities and the qualifications and experience of key engineering staff engaged in designing and testing aircraft and aeronautical products. Add to that my contacts with the Civil Aviation Authority and involvement with local Aerospace Education and skills development initiatives and you will see that I really could not escape being volunteered to take on the mantle of Aerospace Development Partner. However, just as no one individual can design an aeroplane these days so no one individual can hope to achieve all that we wish in developing our aerospace engineering skills base alone. 8O

    So has nothing to do with safety or airworthiness. i think someone is telling you porkies shipmate
  11. Don't let this particular case distract us from other significant shortcomings. Until this and similar cans of worms were opened, many in the surface flotilla envied the safety culture, regulations and procedures in the air world (and the money supporting them) including the 'anymouse' system of no-blame near-miss reporting that helped identify valuable lessons and prevented future accidents. There are many more potential disasters lurking in the wings throughout the Services owing to mid-life updates being postponed, new projects being cancelled or curtailed, and exercises and training being cut owing to inadequate funding.
  12. ____________________________________________________________________

    General Sir Sam Cowan
    Responsible for uniting support agencies for all armed forces into a single organisation, Cowan was in 2000 set a target of reducing costs by 20% by 2005. The aviation lawyer Charles Haddon-Cave QC, who compiled the report, said Cowan should have realised that this cut could come at the expense of safety.

    Air Chief Marshal Sir Malcolm Pledger
    The report quoted Pledger, who succeeded Cowan in September 2002, as saying he was torn between delivering cost savings and supporting British troops in the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. It said he should have questioned the wisdom of pressing on with Cowan's 20% goal.

    Group Captain (now Air Commodore) George Baber
    Led the Ministry of Defence team responsible for the safety review of RAF Nimrods, which took place between 2001 and 2005. Haddon-Cave accused Baber of a "fundamental failure of leadership" in documenting potential dangers in the fleet.

    Wing Commander Michael Eagles
    As head of air vehicle for the Nimrod, Eagles was in charge of managing production of the safety review. But the report said he had delegated the project "wholesale" to Frank Walsh, who was too inexperienced to manage it.

    Frank Walsh
    Safety manager for the Nimrod review and primary point of contact with the BAE team carrying out the work.

    The report said he assessed hazards in a "slapdash" manner and failed to alert superiors when he realised he had overlooked important issues.

    Chris Lowe, BAE
    Heavily involved in preparing the main documents in the Nimrod safety review, Lowe bore the heaviest responsibility in the report for the poor planning, management and execution of the project.

    Richard Oldfield, BAE
    Haddon-Cave said the leader of the Nimrod review for BAE Systems come failed to come clean about large gaps in the analysis of possible risks.

    Eric Prince, BAE
    Haddon-Cave said BAE's flight systems and avionics manager had been "too prepared" to mislead customers regarding the completeness of the work.

    Martyn Mahy, QinetiQ
    The report said the Nimrod review task manager for QinetiQ had either signed off, or approved the signing off, of BAE Systems reports without reading them.

    Colin Blagrove, QinetiQ
    As technical assurance manager, Bladgrove's ultimate responsibility was to ensure QinetiQ signed off nothing unless it was appropriate to do so. The report found him to have failed in this task.
  13. Paxman asked Ainsworth 3 times last night on Newsnight to admit that the fault laid with the government for cutting defence spending, the usual going round in circles not answering the question.
  14. Link to newsnight interview:-
  15. Seadog

    Seadog War Hero Moderator

    NG wrote
    Single Hull Tankers. Just as likely to have a crunch as before but sods' law says otherwise. A crunch and a resulting fuel spillage will throw the spotlight on this Government's funding of Defence in a way that'll make Broon's fat head spin. At least it's easier to get distillate fuels out of seagull feathers than it is residual fuels.
  16. If I was asked to provide the most salient entry in Mr H-C's report, I would pick this from the Exec Summary.

    It wasn't just the Nimrod IPT nor those in Air suffering from this destructive bollox; it was and, largely, still is happening all over. Nobody ever expects the cheese holes to line up to become a smoking hole in the ground (or a smoking compartment under the sea) when your trying to earn a living and retain a career under those circumstances.

    Does anyone remember when the SSA was formed and a certain Mr Baber, who was to be the Ch Exec, saying that it can't work with the "savings" imposed? He resigned to be replaced by a certain Mr Coles who would make it work. We are still living with many of the consequences; but I digress.
  17. Wasn't there a recent report saying the MOD had spent an an extraordinary amount of cash doing up it's offices with plush furnishings etc.
    Correct me if wrong but I'm sure I read it.
    If true it's a scandal but the MP's did it,lives come first not desks

  18. CHIRPS - Confidential human factors incident reporting system? It was and still is an invaluable safety factor in aviation.
  19. As the lady - I believe it was one of the bereaved mothers - said, the first to resign should be Gordon Brown, whose diktat it was that there should be 20% savings across Defence.

    Like your war-criminal predecessor (will they ever give him the opportunity of answering for his lies in The Hague?), you don't understand defence, despite it being the first requirement of your job.

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