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New Carrier's - Are we buying the Wrong Kit ?

Seaweed

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Sea-typhoon - please, please, please NO pretend adaptation of an aircraft designed for something completely different. Didn't people learn anything from the Seafire? and all the other weird 'adaptations' that sugared the FAA in WW2 until it was allowed to buy American - and then, later, we even managed to bgggr up the Phantom by insisting on changing the engines.

This no-cat'n'trap puts the cart before the horse - the reason for the Sea Harrier was that we no longer had a big enough ship for a c'n't aircraft. Once we have a nice big ship then surely we don't need VSTOL at all.

IMHO the real naval avaiation success stories have been with a/c designed for the Fleet from the word go, such as the Stringbag, Corsair and Buccaneer. Mind you, though, Pusser has lumbered himself with some inadequates over the years - Barracuda (just one of whose tricks was asphyxiating its pilots), Fulmar, Seamew (trying to do things on the cheap) etc.
 

TheRowan

Lantern Swinger
I think you're right... unfortunately I have a feeling that cutting out Cat'n'trap will probably end up costing the MoD more than if they'd gone with a conventional design at the beginning. The STOVL design ties us in to buying F-35B or sticking with the aging Harriers and helis. With a conventional CV, we would have a lot more options if/when the F-35 turns out to be buggy, overpriced, or simply not live up to its hype... Rafale, Super Hornet, maybe even Su-33 or MiG-29K. That's not to mention the savings when it comes to AEW or other specialist aircraft.

It's a shame the Typhoon wasn't designed with navalisation in mind... I have a feeling that an indigenous carrier-capable aircraft probably would have swung the balance over to get us some real carriers. I'm saying nothing about the crabs wanting to make sure that the RN didn't have any grounds to pinch their new toys off them... but it does seem strange that there was no provision made for a naval version, if only for export sales...
 

Seaweed

War Hero
Book Reviewer
If the Typhoon had been designed for carrier work it wouldn't have been as good at its day job.
 

grefs

Lantern Swinger
There you go fink. One of Victorious
 

scouse

War Hero
finknottle said:
I have seen enough phots of the Eagle any of Victorious?
Fink that is the Vic leaving pompey 66 on a 12 month Far East commmission!!! Me a baby sailor lining the deck. ps missed the world cup :w00t: :thumright:
 

scouse

War Hero
finknottle said:
When deployed will there be accommodation space for that indispensable piece of kit for all carriers; The Bootie Band?
Even on the real Eagle :w00t: with an extra aerial :thumright:
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Ah, the Sea Typhoon…


What a lot of people don't know, is that the reason the Phroggies walzted off and did their own thing with the Rafale was that when they were part of the original 'Eurofighter' talks, they wanted it to be a dual Naval/Land aircraft. ALas, 'we' saw no need for that facility and off they went.


Building in the structures and capability from scratch is not hard, and the performance penalty is not much, (Phantom/Buccaneer anyone?).

However, to do so now would need a new wing, new undercarriage members and a new real fusalage just for starters so it ain't gonna happen.

Now as to cats and traps?

I'm betting QE will be the austere, fitted for but with nothing version and will end up as a helicopter carrier to replace Ocean, and PoW will come with the bells and whistsles and be the 'real' carrier.
 

sparks69

Midshipman
Everyone seems to be going on about the price of these two vessels, and what a/c should be on them. Well who on gods blue planet is going to man these beasts? As I understand they will require 1500 - 2000 bodies of men to make them go, but we are currently gapped up the ying yang on all platforms, even though the ageing 42's are leaving us in a few years, those ships co will be transferred to the 45's/23's.
 

scouse

War Hero
sparks69 said:
Everyone seems to be going on about the price of these two vessels, and what a/c should be on them. Well who on gods blue planet is going to man these beasts? As I understand they will require 1500 - 2000 bodies of men to make them go, but we are currently gapped up the ying yang on all platforms, even though the ageing 42's are leaving us in a few years, those ships co will be transferred to the 45's/23's.
Hope youve not forgotten the training as well ? :w00t: :thumright: if you manage to attain the manpower :salut:
 
drunken_engineer said:
If you are unhappy with the cost, write to your MP to complain about the way that BAe Systems appear to have the MOD over a barrel as the only major defence contractor in the UK. Also question the way that MOD contracts are written.
Have a read of "Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs" for further clarification of the British Military Industrial machine. It'll make your blood boil.

I know its a bit different but as present I work for lets say a major UK Energy company and we get moaned at all the time for lack of competition and "unfair" yet the Government is happy to allow BAE to do most if not all of the defence manufacture and development for the UK, how is this competitive?
 
chrism_scotland said:
drunken_engineer said:
If you are unhappy with the cost, write to your MP to complain about the way that BAe Systems appear to have the MOD over a barrel as the only major defence contractor in the UK. Also question the way that MOD contracts are written.
Have a read of "Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs" for further clarification of the British Military Industrial machine. It'll make your blood boil.

I know its a bit different but as present I work for lets say a major UK Energy company and we get moaned at all the time for lack of competition and "unfair" yet the Government is happy to allow BAE to do most if not all of the defence manufacture and development for the UK, how is this competitive?

You are quite right the dear old Messy Beast has a virtual monopoly in many areas, but this has been done very much with government support over the years. The stark reality is that the critical mass required for and defence company to be effective in many areas is such that at present spending levels there is only the ork to sustain one company. Even so the reality is in many spheres where Messy Beast has a UK monopoly the MOD always has the threat of an offshore purchase to keep things under some form of control. There is a big difference in the impact and need for competition when the customer is as strong or perhaps stronger than the supplier, it is very different with energy suppliers who have many small customers, or supermarkets. etc.
 

finknottle

Banned
scouse said:
finknottle said:
I have seen enough phots of the Eagle any of Victorious?
Fink that is the Vic leaving pompey 66 on a 12 month Far East commmission!!! Me a baby sailor lining the deck. ps missed the world cup :w00t: :thumright:[/quote

scouse! :roll:
 
Maxi_77 said:
chrism_scotland said:
drunken_engineer said:
If you are unhappy with the cost, write to your MP to complain about the way that BAe Systems appear to have the MOD over a barrel as the only major defence contractor in the UK. Also question the way that MOD contracts are written.
Have a read of "Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs" for further clarification of the British Military Industrial machine. It'll make your blood boil.

I know its a bit different but as present I work for lets say a major UK Energy company and we get moaned at all the time for lack of competition and "unfair" yet the Government is happy to allow BAE to do most if not all of the defence manufacture and development for the UK, how is this competitive?

You are quite right the dear old Messy Beast has a virtual monopoly in many areas, but this has been done very much with government support over the years. The stark reality is that the critical mass required for and defence company to be effective in many areas is such that at present spending levels there is only the ork to sustain one company. Even so the reality is in many spheres where Messy Beast has a UK monopoly the MOD always has the threat of an offshore purchase to keep things under some form of control. There is a big difference in the impact and need for competition when the customer is as strong or perhaps stronger than the supplier, it is very different with energy suppliers who have many small customers, or supermarkets. etc.

Yeah we don't really order enough to have an actual "industry" around the military unlike in the United States.
In someways if BAE wasn't there to build and develop British platforms and weapons we would likely end up losing the British capability to build and develop military equipment and end up just being a customer of the US or Europe.
 
chrism_scotland said:
Yeah we don't really order enough to have an actual "industry" around the military unlike in the United States.
In someways if BAE wasn't there to build and develop British platforms and weapons we would likely end up losing the British capability to build and develop military equipment and end up just being a customer of the US or Europe.

That's a bit of a yes and no, we certainly can support a fair bit of industry, and there are some companies selling into the US not just on a workshare basis but because they can provide the right stuff at the right price. It is not just the ability to desig and build but the ability to change and modify at short notice, it is the capability surge when the balloon goes up. For example I have been involved in the production of 'specials' since the Falklands. Not all of these get out there, but some do. I remebr the company I was working for getting to prototype units integrated onto aircraft and operational for GW1 and being able to match the inservice availability of the US kit.

Clearly as time goes on we are going to have to buymore from abroad or indulge in joint development pogrammes, we are going to have to develop nich markets withing that, but at the same time we are going to need the ability to do the quick and dirty upgrade, hence the battles with the Yanks over source code.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Squeezable said:
would buying the Rafale mean that we would have the same aircraft as the argies?

NOpe, Spics have some some old Etendards, even older Mirages and even older still Skyhawks
 
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