Navigation in submarines

Topstop

War Hero
Nutty said:
Top stop

I think D-L's reference to S and T's are the boats constructed during WW11 not the SSN type. Certainly on Truncheon we had the Magnetic Compass in the fin viewed via a dim, dirty and damp periscope system not near easy eye level which was difficult to steer by.

SINS etc were an item of the future for us.

Nutty

OOP`s sorry I keep thinking I`m old.
 

x4nd

Lantern Swinger
letthecatoutofthebag said:
Tritech said:
letthecatoutofthebag said:
rod-gearing said:
Latest thing now is digital mapping,no need for charts any more.
Does that make the navies yeoman redundant?

AFAIK, most of the Surface Flotila is now equipped with some form of electronic charts (WECDIS = Warship Electronic Chart Display and Information System). It consists of a couple of displays on the bridge, with a laptop backup/ planning aid in the Charthouse. There are a number of GPS inputs (for redundancy) and there are radar, ARPA (Automatic Radar Plotting Aid) and AIS (Automatic Infomation Service) overlays. It can also be interaced with Total Tide (tidal prediction software) and can show realtime predicted tidal information. It's based on ECPINS 5000 made by a Canadian company called OSI. Ships who have received WECDIS accreditation can reduce their paper chart holdings to a minimum, though they are still required to correct these and all the publications that take up space in the charthouse. I don't know if they have got rid of NYs but they were going to close the CMUs.

They have started the roll out to the submarine flotilla but have had some snags implementing dived navigation on the system. That chap I was chatting to a couple of weeks ago implied that the software writers are having some snags writing the code to deal with pools of errors and such like; they are finding it much more difficult to write the software than anticipated.

BTW, I'm a surface navigator not a submariner so I may have some of the dived navigation aspects incorrect. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct me.

Its not like that on bombers matey. Its all black arts and voodoo. Oh and dvd's, bread mix, cereal, uht etc :afro:

I should have said, of course, the SSN/SSBN outfit is considerably reduced compared to that of the surface flotila. I don't know which bits submarines don't have but I doubt they'll have ARPA or multiple DGPS inputs. I might be wrong, but I think only 1 SSN has WECDIS at the moment and they are having snags with it...

SSBNs still use real “old fashioned†charts.

:dwarf:
 
Nutty said:
Top stop

I think D-L's reference to S and T's are the boats constructed during WW11 not the SSN type. Certainly on Truncheon we had the Magnetic Compass in the fin viewed via a dim, dirty and damp periscope system not near easy eye level which was difficult to steer by.

SINS etc were an item of the future for us.

Nutty

A O& P boats had an 'improved magnetic compass known as the Admiralty Transmitting Magnetic Compass, (ATMC) as did Donut and Valiant though Warspite had an ARMA BROWN gyro as the get you home compass. The bonus with the ATMC was not only did you not have to sterr by it looking up it's periscope but you could drive all repater, fruit machine ARL table etc etc with it so everything that used a gyro input still worked.
 
Nutty said:
So what happens in a total power loss and the batteries go flat after 3 hours.

All give up and go home! oh sorry we are about 6oo km south of Iceland, I THINK

Nutty

Just the same as in the old days, you snort till they fix the kettle.
 

sulzer

Lantern Swinger
The ATMC was a basic aircraft type compass with a method of outputting a signal to drive a series of repeaters. I did see one as an exhibit while U/T. I believe (memory shaky after 52years) that they were used in large bombers (eg Lancasters mounted in the tailfin).

They were fitted with very limited correction facilities compared with a standad compass binnacle.

The advent of the submarine was a driving force in the development of the Gyro Compass in many countries (S G Brown UK;Sperry USA; Anschuss ? Gemany and an Italian firm) all this led to Aircraft autopilots 1924, ship stabilisers; Gyro gunsights 1940s etc)

The most modern rate gyros are solid state and used everywhere eg Mercedes cars as rate sensors)

Here endeth the lesson
 
sulzer said:
The ATMC was a basic aircraft type compass with a method of outputting a signal to drive a series of repeaters. I did see one as an exhibit while U/T. I believe (memory shaky after 52years) that they were used in large bombers (eg Lancasters mounted in the tailfin).

They were fitted with very limited correction facilities compared with a standad compass binnacle.

The advent of the submarine was a driving force in the development of the Gyro Compass in many countries (S G Brown UK;Sperry USA; Anschuss ? Gemany and an Italian firm) all this led to Aircraft autopilots 1924, ship stabilisers; Gyro gunsights 1940s etc)

The most modern rate gyros are solid state and used everywhere eg Mercedes cars as rate sensors)

Here endeth the lesson

Yes compasses like the ATMC had much less correction facility than main binnacles, but after all they were intended as a get you home device not a main steering compass. Transmitting comapsses were made possible by the flux valve device which alloed position of a magnet to be sensed and recreated electrically. The clever bit about the ATMC was that it converted the flux valve output to M type transmission to run all standard RN gyro repeaters, allowing anything that needed a compass input to be driven.

The drive for the guro compass was not so much the emerging submarine services, I think it would haven been difficult to get the early Sperry or Brown compasses into a 1910 boat. The gyro compass was not in itself required for the ship stabilisers, and passive tank systems are simply tuned to be anti-phase with the sea and thus cancel out some of the roll energy. Active stabilisation systemsuse rate gyros, a very different beast to the northseaking gyro and accellerometers, and in fact can just use accelerometers.

Modern rate sensors are either micromachined things or ring lasers or fibre optic lasers depending on the need. RLGs and FOGs can be used to build both north seeking compasses and inertial platforms.

The last gyro compass make to the Sperry patent was made by Tokio Keiki though they like I think every one else including sperry use the anschutz principle rather than the sperry principle these days

Sperry also as well as the gyro compass developed the first active fin stabiliser and the first autopilot which was not named george but metal mike.
 

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