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Naval Standards

Lingyai said:
If the senior rates could still give them a fat lip for gobbing off it might help. You set high standards and try to do the right thing but sometimes the little sods just need a slight cuffing. Shame the top brass put this form of discipline in the bracket of bullying. Whatever happened to the balls in the service? Too much crying to mummy now.

Scene: Fleetwork Trainer A1, Colingrad

Cut to cubicle 7, where a CPO is berating a Killick for making basic fleetwork cock-ups. A 4 ringer enters, and bollocking is temporarily suspended.

Capt: "So Chief, I've just witnessed first hand that mistakes are being made".

CPO: "Yes sir, standards aren't what they used to be."

Capt: "And what do you put this decline down to, Chief?"

CPO: "The fact that we're no longer allowed to do this...." Picks up ATP1 Vol II and smartly introduces book to back of killick's head.

Capt: "Oh..... well.... er.... carry on Chief." :)

I wasn't the CPO concerned but witnessed this incident and had great difficulty keeping a straight face!
 
Alfred you didnt make yourself clear,scruffiest naval officer ,ive never advocated violence to anyone ive never had cause to run anyone, of course its not my concern what you wear ashore,how would i know you were an officer? but the thread is about standards, in your opinion they dont seem to be important,yet in the same breath you complain about officers and SRs in the pension trap,only wanting to do their time and get out , does that not point towards low morale? low morale in my humble opinion is down to standards at the end of the day.Yet you seem to disagree.


Good man management is keeping those that cant stand you,away from those that are undecided.
 
No, my complaint was about people who sit and whinge about standards who are either a) in the pension trap or b) outside. If they're still in the Service, then they should do something about it - and to my mind that doesn't including giving them a thick lip, or cuffing them around the head. If they're outside, then they have frankly lost any right to go on about standards - 2nd hand dits they've heard at the bar are not the reality of the modern Andrew.

My comments regarding my dress was an illustration that wearing boots with 3 inch soles is neither here nor there - you cannot judge the quality of someone by their civvies. I have high professional standards, but I, like many younger members of the RN, will point out, vocally if required, double standards from our superiors and any that smacks of "we've always done it that way so shut up". You may've always done it that way, but is it still relevant or necessary? It put people on the spot and out of their comfort zone, but if you can't justify its existence, then the solution is not to blame gobby recruits.

Low morale in my mind is due to many things, and standards are included in that. However, those who hark back to a "golden age" (again, generally those approaching their 22) of standards have to realise that society has changed, and as such the definition of a given standard will no longer be true. [does that make sense?] The younger people I work with, LH and below, Lt and below, are as good as you ever were, we just do it differently.
 
Why has anyone who is out,not got the right to go on about standards? Old standards ,surely thats what makes them standards?if low morale is not a problem, why do so many want to pack it in?No not second hand dits heard at the bar,my son is a serving chief tiff on boats,thats where i get it from,as you say ,the reality of the modern andrew,i get depressed when people say im not entitled to an opinion,as you appear to be implying,frankly lost any rights to go on about standards,well soon be in a police state ,or has the navy got there first.?And reading through a lot of threads there are not a lot who have served their time so to speak. I understand changing times and i appreciate other peoples point of view,but it does seem to me that an awful lot is change for changes sake,and i find that sad. Of course there has to be change in the modern navy but that doesnt mean its all for the better,im sure there are people still in who would say somethings are worse, still there you go, and even if it doesnt meet with your approval,its my opinion.
 
Alfred

With you on most things, although the old and bold still have a right to an opinion. But the RN is different today. There's at least as much, if not more, front line operational work on the go than most of us has ever seen before and hardly any ships to do it in.

I knew several off watch hippies in the 70s and 80s, who were every bit as good as those who went ashore in another uniform. The Goth approach is just today. Don't think it would suit me, but it's just another method of trapping!!
 
alfred_the_great said:
ah, my bad, I got lost - I was following the smell of p*ss coming from the CPOs mess!

As a serving CPO and a senior one at that, I take that the wrong way.

As for some of your other comments regarding the fact that the RN has no right to tell you what to wear ashore, I think you will find they actually do to a certain degree. Or perhaps you are a closet TV and like going out dressed as a women at weekends. Mind you, thats probably legal now as well to keep in tune with the PC brigade. Also worth a mention is the fact that many people do in fact judge someones character by the clothes they wear, it is human nature to do so.

As for me, I have gone past the 22 year stage by some time and am due to leave the service very soon having served in several hot zones, including The Falklands, Northern Ireland and The Gulf. With that in mind, I suppose I am one of 'your' over the hill, get out now or shut the feck up characters. I get the feeling you would not know a 'hot zone' even if you were stood on burning coals.

There are some very good people in the RN and there also some very usless people in it as well. I think the point most of us on here are attempting to make are the fact that the RN is so bloody short of personnel that they no longer boot out the dross. As said in an earlier post, we are contiuously lowering the pass mark for exams so that we can keep the sausage factory full. Sorry, but that is NOT the answer.

Whats the matter? Did someone not let you have cream on your figgy duff last night. :wink:
 
alfred_the_great said:
No, my complaint was about people who sit and whinge about standards who are either a) in the pension trap or b) outside. If they're still in the Service, then they should do something about it - and to my mind that doesn't including giving them a thick lip, or cuffing them around the head.

Agreed - instruction by intimidation does not in general work, instructors must work to engage their students' interest which in all honesty is a lot harder than just beating the information into them, and I might add its a hell of a lot more rewarding for the instructor. However, the pendulum has swung way too far in favour of the students and it has reached the point (and not just in the RN) where students have more control than their teacher/instructor which is just plain wrong. I'm all for human rights, but attached to those rights are responsibilities too that are all too often forgotten.

alfred_the_great said:
I have high professional standards, but I, like many younger members of the RN, will point out, vocally if required, double standards from our superiors and any that smacks of "we've always done it that way so shut up". You may've always done it that way, but is it still relevant or necessary?

Agreed to a point, recently society seems to be throwing away perfectly working systems just because "we've always done it that way" and replacing them with ideal theoretical ways of working that fall over at the first sight of reality (OMs and Tax Credits are two that spring to mind).

alfred_the_great said:
Low morale in my mind is due to many things, and standards are included in that. However, those who hark back to a "golden age" (again, generally those approaching their 22) of standards have to realise that society has changed, and as such the definition of a given standard will no longer be true. [does that make sense?]

Yes, but just because society has changed is no excuse to accept under-performance as the norm. On LRLC and POLC (or LRCC and SRCC in today's money) I was told that Leadership must strike a balance between the needs of the individual, task and team; we seem to have lost the task and team elements and have concentrated too much on the individual.
 
brigham600 said:
As said in an earlier post, we are contiuously lowering the pass mark for exams so that we can keep the sausage factory full. Sorry, but that is NOT the answer.

I think this is well recognised by the inhabitants of the SR mess, including the malodorous urine soaked ones so beloved of Alfred :D . However another trend of recent years is that the SRs have been marginalised - maybe the Thin Blue Line will redress this.
 
I think a lot depends on what you mean. My first measure is whether or not the job gets done well, and I get the impression that the RN is getting the job done as well as it did in my day. It does it differently but the job does get done. My second measure is what is the retention rate, as that is a measure of how well the organisation looks after it's people, and I get the impression again that retention is no worse than it was in my day, and perhaps even better.

If this is the case then they do seem to be getting most of it right.

Just because it is different today does not mean it is worse.

Peter
 

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