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Naval Standards

Just to add to my previous comment, people are getting their rate's a lot earlier than before. I spent over 8 years on rosters just to get to PO, I've a fellow warfare PO onboard who was a killick for only just over a year (due to being in the new warfare branch at the right time), and it showed in his attitude to mess rules & etiquette. He changed his ways when I banned him from the mess for a week.
He now see's things how they should be, and he now sets examples for others to follow.
But whilst the mob rate people up just because they've been in 3 years you will get killicks who are not only upto the professional task at hand, they are also not ready to be "Leading Hands" in he general sense either, as they don't want to be unpopular down the mess.
 
Nozzer. Those I listed are just a few of the many I have been unfortunate to witness and yes, I did take action on all of them. The JR answering back to the SR was witnessed whilst I was conducting a searide. I looked, waited for him to administer a bollocking etc and when he did nothing, I stepped in.

Needless to say the said PO and the gobby little git now fully understand they do not ever want to be on the wrong end of one of my bollockings again. To be honest, I was a bit worried I had overstepped the mark and was expecting to be hauled before CST at some stage. However, nothing happened. I also mentioned the aforementioned behaviour to the ships Ops Officer.

The SR's Mess one is unbelieveable I know, but very true and I get utterly pissed off with the standards entering the bastion that was once above all standards. Without wishing to sound an 'old and stupid' git, it is more or less as 'sparkerbunting' states, some of them are promoted far too early and do not understand the behaviour expected of them in a WO & SR's Mess, even though are often rebriefed by many, especially us older hands. I also blame the Mess Presidents of any Mess who let them get away with behaviour like that.

An example of one particular CPO I have seen lately during a BOST. In 2002 I saw him when he had just picked up his hook as a young tiffy. He is now a CPO and has feck all conception of the way discipline or taking charge of a body of men. I am not jealous or bitter just because he is a Tiff, I am purely stating facts. You do the maths, Killick to CPO in less than 4 years. :oops:

Anyway, enough of my ranting on a pleasant Sunday afternoon. Civvie street beckons very soon and I honestly cannot wait to leave.
 
The simple answer is to start running them. Standing Orders/Daily Orders are quite explicit, and will back you up. I see so many SRs who are scared of being thought of as a barsteward, and too many LHs are "mates" with their subordinates. If you think in this way, then you are breeding problems. Heard a story about an Admiral who was so fed up with not receiving marks of respect that he started giving perpetrators a lift. However, the lift was to wherever he was going, and they had to make their own way back! Standards have gone south, no doubt about it, but it needs more proactivity from management to fix it - turning a blind eye will only see it getting worse.
 
Many really dont have a full handle on the required standard. I see this as being linked to a general lack of formality in society. This is reflected by the number of people in public life who choose to dress like chavs. It doesnt just affect the Mob, look at anyone who wears a uniform for a living, from coppers to postmen, they won't be as well turned out as they might have been 30 years ago. If you talk to younger people about this issue they are genuinely mystified as to why they should wear headress when wearing rig in public. I've even had to rebrief a RM CPL as to why its neccesary to wear his beret whilst on watch on the gangway! I'm not stating this as a justification, just pointing out the facts as I see them.
I would agree with the point about people getting their rates too early. The onset of the ET branch(min 6yrs to PO)will help alleviate that problem.

The issue of standards in the mess was certainly being addessed in the last mess that I lived in, though once aagain it was the younger members of the mess who where most mystfied as to why they could,nt go to scran in trackies and flip-flops!
 
PompeySailor: Unfortunately the problem in running them these days is the enormous amount of red tape and paperwork to get through before you can put them up at the XO's table. Still no excuse not to though.
 
clanky said:
...The issue of standards in the mess was certainly being addessed in the last mess that I lived in, though once aagain it was the younger members of the mess who where most mystfied as to why they could,nt go to scran in trackies and flip-flops!

I notice this when I go on cruises abroad these days. In my parents day men had to wear an evening jacket or lounge suit & tie to dinner and ladies wore evening dresses. On my last cruise there were people trying to enter the galley in jeans. Interestingly those of us who were dressed in dinner jackets came into two distinct groups: those of us with little, no or grey to white hair, and those who were far too young to even think about shaving. It was those in their 20s to late 40s who were the worst offenders: they too could not see why they should dress for dinner! So there might be some hope for the future. In civvy land where I work there used to be a strictly enforced rules about men wearing ties. Now people can get away with wearing dirty T-shirts - and one cannot pull them up for it.
 
NozzyNozzer said:
clanky said:
...The issue of standards in the mess was certainly being addessed in the last mess that I lived in, though once aagain it was the younger members of the mess who where most mystfied as to why they could,nt go to scran in trackies and flip-flops!

I notice this when I go on cruises abroad these days. In my parents day men had to wear an evening jacket or lounge suit & tie to dinner and ladies wore evening dresses. On my last cruise there were people trying to enter the galley in jeans. Interestingly those of us who were dressed in dinner jackets came into two distinct groups: those of us with little, no or grey to white hair, and those who were far too young to even think about shaving. It was those in their 20s to late 40s who were the worst offenders: they too could not see why they should dress for dinner! So there might be some hope for the future. In civvy land where I work there used to be a strictly enforced rules about men wearing ties. Now people can get away with wearing dirty T-shirts - and one cannot pull them up for it.

My point exactly(but better presented)
 
Can I be the only person here who doesn't believe in all this doom and gloom? I rarely see anyone in either Pompey dockyard or COLLINGRAD in mixed rig, negative headgear or on a mobile, and when I do they receive a bollocking from me, which I never seen returned with a sneer or impertinence. And why shouldn't someone walk in well-disguised mixed-rig through Portsmouth? As long as the only people who can recognise someone is from tell-tale steaming bats under a civvie coat - so what? Full uniform negative headgear is much more of a heinous crime, in my humble opinion.

Times HAVE changed, and it is both unreasonable and old-fashioned to expect people born in the 1980s to automatically understand 1930s dress codes without patient instruction. And that aplied to young officers, baby ratings AND cruise passengers. Like it or not, wearing smart civilian clothing is a pain in the backside but I can say categorically that the JR of today is considerably better dressed when ashore than his counterpart 15 years ago.

You are all, of course, 100% correct about the importance of wearing the Queen's uniform both smartly and correctly and any failure to enforce this is as much the fault of the SR and officer than the JR (assuming it is a JR!). Brigham and sparkerbunting's comments about young and inexperienced SRs setting bad examples equally reflects on a far too accelerated promotion system for today's POs from LH (often called a "pull through") as well as a poor example from the senior WO/SRs mess members.

So, rest assured that in my (not so) little corner of the RN, standards are higher than the stories above may indicate, and the contribution of the serving members above at least shows that we all are frustrated by the same thing, when we see it. BUT, anyone who fails to pick someone up because of a lack of moral courage or being scared of being bollocked is simply weak. Unless you hit somebody, you will ALWAYS be backed up by your chain of command. So .... pick up the scrotes and tell your oppos to do the same!
 
The effectiveness of a Senior Rate has nothing to do with age or early promotion and everything to do with the quality and standards imposed during training.
Even back in the bad old days of the 60's, it was possible to join up as a Stoker, be a POME by 20/21 and pick your buttons up by 25. (I know, I did it.) And were standards of dress and behaviour and discipline poor?
No way, they were possibly the best they've ever been.
h
 
hornpipe said:
The effectiveness of a Senior Rate has nothing to do with age or early promotion and everything to do with the quality and standards imposed during training.
Even back in the bad old days of the 60's, it was possible to join up as a Stoker, be a POME by 20/21 and pick your buttons up by 25. (I know, I did it.) And were standards of dress and behaviour and discipline poor?
No way, they were possibly the best they've ever been.
h


Have to agree you have a good point there, but the problems all still point to the top. And if those in their ivory towers can’t get their act together what hope is there, the only thing I can think of is change from the bottom/middle.
 
There are plenty of reasons for the general decline in standards and they include, the civilianisation of key posts, the use of Income Generation like that going on in Sultan and Collingwood and the management , driven by satistics, having little idea of what is going on at the bottom.

I have just left a full time DO's job in a training establishment where some of the following occured.

1. The CDR pushed out a CTM regarding the use of mobile phones. It said if a call is recieved when fallen in/marching in a platoon, you may fall out and take the call to establish the caller and nature of call. WHAT!

2. One of the trainees went AWOL (Twice). The first time he told the staff his mother had just been killed in an RTA. The boss took in to the airport. He was discharged for academic failings before an disclpinary action occured. Not a good example to other trainees

3. A policy that does not allow the imediate discharge of those that self harm/attempt suicide. Would you want them in your ship/SQDN?

4. The inability to get rid of trainnes easily, that are failing, to thick to be in their particulary branch, not up to standard or a disclipanary night mare.

5. Evening round where checking on their welfare is more important that the standard of the mess decks. Its one or the other!

etc etc.

All those people wearing a rank or rate must upheld the high standards that are expected. If you wear the badges and take the money its your job!

It is a difficult job and the majority of us aren't in a position to change the rules, we must make those that are in place work for us.

Rant over
 
seaking said:
There are plenty of reasons for the general decline in standards and they include, the civilianisation of key posts, the use of Income Generation like that going on in Sultan and Collingwood and the management , driven by satistics, having little idea of what is going on at the bottom.

I have just left a full time DO's job in a training establishment where some of the following occured.

1. The CDR pushed out a CTM regarding the use of mobile phones. It said if a call is recieved when fallen in/marching in a platoon, you may fall out and take the call to establish the caller and nature of call. WHAT!

2. One of the trainees went AWOL (Twice). The first time he told the staff his mother had just been killed in an RTA. The boss took in to the airport. He was discharged for academic failings before an disclpinary action occured. Not a good example to other trainees

3. A policy that does not allow the imediate discharge of those that self harm/attempt suicide. Would you want them in your ship/SQDN?

4. The inability to get rid of trainnes easily, that are failing, to thick to be in their particulary branch, not up to standard or a disclipanary night mare.

5. Evening round where checking on their welfare is more important that the standard of the mess decks. Its one or the other!

etc etc.

All those people wearing a rank or rate must upheld the high standards that are expected. If you wear the badges and take the money its your job!

It is a difficult job and the majority of us aren't in a position to change the rules, we must make those that are in place work for us.

Rant over


RE 1. what?
Is this some sort of bite? Mobile phones while marching/fallen in? was the CDR? On medication it’s the only reason I can think of for such madness, if not I hope and pray he was dealt with the utmost severity (not much hope in that if all that if I read is true! they after all do look after their own and have always done so).
 
From Daily Orders today......

Standards Of Military Dress And Behaviour. Lt Cdr xxxxxx First Lieutenant HMS EXCELLENT xxxxx xxxx

In today’s modern Royal Navy, it is all too easy to forget the standards of dress and behaviour expected in a disciplined service. Too often of late, my staff and I have had occasion to remind personnel (sadly including both Senior Ratings and Officers) that berets/caps are to be worn when walking around the Establishment, hands are not to be in pockets and mobile phones are not to be used. Shape up or ship out! (This message is sponsored by your friendly First Lt)



Are they reading this board...?
 
PompeySailor said:
From Daily Orders today......

Standards Of Military Dress And Behaviour. Lt Cdr xxxxxx First Lieutenant HMS EXCELLENT xxxxx xxxx

In today’s modern Royal Navy, it is all too easy to forget the standards of dress and behaviour expected in a disciplined service. Too often of late, my staff and I have had occasion to remind personnel (sadly including both Senior Ratings and Officers) that berets/caps are to be worn when walking around the Establishment, hands are not to be in pockets and mobile phones are not to be used. Shape up or ship out! (This message is sponsored by your friendly First Lt)





Are they reading this board...?


Cue "twilight zone" theme music.
Spookily enough, I've noticed dress/standards related measures being implemented at my location!
 

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