Naval Standards

[SILVER_FOX]

Does anyone else get thoroughly narked off about the lack of standards and military bearing these days? I've lost count of the number of times I see JR’s [but not exclusively] walking down Queen Street, negative headgear, mobile phone pressed against their ear and fag in the other hand. I see it happen a lot in the Naval Base too … and as for bleeding iPod’s. When did they become standard issue to be worn with all rigs?

I get even more annoyed at the reaction I get when I pull them up for it. Where’s all the pride gone? :x

 

[higthepig]

Noticed the rot a few years ago,there is no pride,they seem to get away with murder,is it a lack of discipline?An admiral told me once as a Chief,there are no bad junior rates,only bad senior rates,thats as true now as it was then.

 

[PartTimer]

The problem is well know at the top, and things are being done about it - from the "Dark Blue Line" divisional brief.

Any CLM training must be underpinned by a clear understanding of the Naval Service’s core values and ethos and an appreciation of the Naval Service’s unique history and heritage. We must sustain peoples’ sense of pride in their service and uniform, and promote their loyalty to service, branch, class, ship or sub department, and most importantly, to each other. These values apply to all of us, leaders at all levels, as well as those being led.

Edited for typo.

 

[SILVER_FOX]

The Naval Base Commander (Portsmouth) pushed out a memo on it a few years ago. In it he reminded everyone of their responsibilities. It was inferred [not sure if it was in the memo or at div briefings] that anyone holding a rank / rate caught not enforcing standards would be subject to a bleedin' good rollocking, etc too.

There's still a lot of room for improvement though.

 

[whitemouse]

Noticed the rot a few years ago,there is no pride,they seem to get away with murder,is it a lack of discipline?An admiral told me once as a Chief,there are no bad junior rates,only bad senior rates,thats as true now as it was then.

Strange (not so!!) that he would admit to any bad officers, passing the buck down probably.
I had a couple (ex lower deckers) who were real illigitimates - yet others I met were okay.
It was said at the time that some of them thought they had something to prove to direct entries, and maybe cut all memories of coming from the lower deck possibly as though it was something to be ashamed of.
As a LH then SR I only trooped those that did not work as part of the team after trying to get them to see the point before resorting to the disciplinary path, a thing that I have carried on since I left the andrew - sugar and not sour works better, a thing I learned from an old sea dad.
I've worked with US forces in the past, and they seem to have a pride in their service arm - perhaps there is not the pride, or comradeship, these days in the RN, because some see it as a job and not a career?

Anyway the weekend is here again - have a good one all

 

[NozzyNozzer]

Noticed the rot a few years ago,there is no pride,they seem to get away with murder,is it a lack of discipline?An admiral told me once as a Chief,there are no bad junior rates,only bad senior rates,thats as true now as it was then.

Mike LeFanu?

He used to say that there were no bad boys, only bad parents - though never to the Boys/Juniors under his command at Shotley - this was of course, before my time

It is probably as much to do with the very different worlds we grew up in and youngsters today's grow up in. When I was a kid you'd get clobbered for disrespect and slackness in a manner that would be completely unacceptable today. A PO or Chief who clobbered a kid today would be out of the Service.

 

[Greenie]

Think the biggest problem is that the old senior rates had authority ,sometimes they abused it but no matter they still had respect from the junior ratings.

Present day discipline and enforcing it has become a minefield for Senior rates .

Can anyone define Military bearing!! What are the standards!!

As for walking and smoking --well at the moment smoking in any room ,enclosed space etc is not normally allowed in most places!!

 

[sparkerbuntingnowcis]

As a serving senior rate, i become very annoyed when I have to pick up the more junior members of the service about their military bearing. Sometimes the look on their faces is of total contempt at times, I think this is because other senior rates let them get away it. It needs addressing from the Leading Hand level upwards, then maybe we can get back to the standards we used to have.

Ps. Its even worse when you see Senior Rates walking around in uniform with a mobile strapped to the side of their heads, the kids see this and think its the norm.

Rant over

 

[dt018a9667]

As a serving senior rate, i become very annoyed when I have to pick up the more junior members of the service about their military bearing. Sometimes the look on their faces is of total contempt at times, I think this is because other senior rates let them get away it. It needs addressing from the Leading Hand level upwards, then maybe we can get back to the standards we used to have.

Ps. Its even worse when you see Senior Rates walking around in uniform with a mobile strapped to the side of their heads, the kids see this and think its the norm.

Rant over

At long last a down to earth simple statement that I could not agree more with, I don’t think I can add any more to it. Keep up the good work.

Ps just to show how standards have dropped. Yesterday morning on the way home after nightshift outside Albert gate I saw a killick stoker riding his bike into work wearing his overalls and wearing a hard hat! At least he had one thing partially right.

 

[SILVER_FOX]

Without wishing to sound like a party political broadcast I believe in standards. Maintaining them is what sets us aside from the rabble and serves to remind all who we really are.

I'm not a disciplinarian but I believe in rules. If we allow the smallest to be broken, bent or ignored, then we're inviting similar treatment of the bigger ones too. I have until now and will continue to maintain standards, in myself and others ... but I recognise it is becoming an increasingly uphill struggle. I firmly believe that we're all responsible for setting the example and maintaining the line.

 

[brigham600]

I too believe in maintaining standards, but unfortunately some of the hierarchy do not. I get quite sick and tired as a CPO and a FOSTIE to boot of having to pickup Junior Rates and some Petty Officers for differing indiscretions.

Just some of the things I have witnessed and taken action on in the past few months in Drake:

1. Mixed rig walking from the Senior Rates Mess to work.
2. Junior Rates using mobile phones walking through the establishment.
3. Walking about with no headgear on.
4. Answering back by Jr's to SRs and the SR taking no action. (Rebriefed)
5. Hands in pockets with total disregard of nearby SRs.
6. Foul weather jackets undone, bimbling through the dockyard.
7. Fellow Senior Rates in the Mess in t-shirts, training bottoms etc. (why does the hall porter not pick them up in the first place)
8. Leading Hands not taking charge of others in their vicinity.

The list is not exhaustive and some things are just plain hard to believe when we are supposed to be a disciplined service.

My notice is in and I am currently awaiting approval for early release. Afraid the RN has lost the plot and for me the plot starts at the top. Far too many of our so called leaders in the Ivory Towers who have lost complete touch with life and become far too PC.

So if any of you lot in the Admiralty are reading this or looking at this web site, then take a look at just how many Senior Rates are currently leaving the RN and ask yourself WHY? Maybe a reason why the 2OE signal was so bloody massive this year! That says it all, you are panicking. Stable door and horse spring to mind.

 

[higthepig]

Got to agree with the above and i left in 79,how long does it take,myson is a chief on Bombers and tells me hes leaving cos hes pissed off,and just signed on for 20eten,dont underdstand the thinking of those at the top,who are they?lets have some names,but you wont hear,no guts no glory,perhaps some newly joined junior rate might have more sense and change things back to what his grandad did.,my god ,that will upset a few on here.

 

[SILVER_FOX]

brigham600 - re your reasons for submitting notice: maybe we could use a page on this site for members to cite their real reasons for leaving the service (before their time) ... just in case the "manners" might be listening.

 

[brigham600]

brigham600 - re your reasons for submitting notice: maybe we could use a page on this site for members to cite their real reasons for leaving the service (before their time) ... just in case the "manners" might be listening.

That would be a great idea, but I think those whom sit in the big chairs in the 'grown ups' room would not like it.

I promise to reveal my reasons when I am actually a civvie. Suffice to say that most of it is wardroom orientated, particularly at Cmdr and above level.

 

[NozzyNozzer]

I too believe in maintaining standards, but unfortunately some of the hierarchy do not. I get quite sick and tired as a CPO and a FOSTIE to boot of having to pickup Junior Rates and some Petty Officers for differing indiscretions.

Just some of the things I have witnessed and taken action on in the past few months in Drake:

1. Mixed rig walking from the Senior Rates Mess to work.
2. Junior Rates using mobile phones walking through the establishment.
3. Walking about with no headgear on.
4. Answering back by Jr's to SRs and the SR taking no action. (Rebriefed)
5. Hands in pockets with total disregard of nearby SRs.
6. Foul weather jackets undone, bimbling through the dockyard.
7. Fellow Senior Rates in the Mess in t-shirts, training bottoms etc. (why does the hall porter not pick them up in the first place)
8. Leading Hands not taking charge of others in their vicinity.

First check my calendar... not it isn't 1st April... Astonishing! 8O Things have certainly changed! For 3 & 5 the least you'd expect would be a bollocking, and as for 4 & 7 I simply can't believe it! Are we actually discussing the RN here or the nozzers' entry of the Sea Cadets: in fact the Sea Cadets probably enforce the standards and discipline. This indiscipline is nothing to doing with being PC. It's about lowering expectations/standards and confusing tolerance with a lack of firmness and resolve on the part of the FSL down!

 

[sparkerbuntingnowcis]

Just to add to my previous comment, people are getting their rate's a lot earlier than before. I spent over 8 years on rosters just to get to PO, I've a fellow warfare PO onboard who was a killick for only just over a year (due to being in the new warfare branch at the right time), and it showed in his attitude to mess rules & etiquette. He changed his ways when I banned him from the mess for a week.
He now see's things how they should be, and he now sets examples for others to follow.
But whilst the mob rate people up just because they've been in 3 years you will get killicks who are not only upto the professional task at hand, they are also not ready to be "Leading Hands" in he general sense either, as they don't want to be unpopular down the mess.

 

[brigham600]

Nozzer. Those I listed are just a few of the many I have been unfortunate to witness and yes, I did take action on all of them. The JR answering back to the SR was witnessed whilst I was conducting a searide. I looked, waited for him to administer a bollocking etc and when he did nothing, I stepped in.

Needless to say the said PO and the gobby little git now fully understand they do not ever want to be on the wrong end of one of my bollockings again. To be honest, I was a bit worried I had overstepped the mark and was expecting to be hauled before CST at some stage. However, nothing happened. I also mentioned the aforementioned behaviour to the ships Ops Officer.

The SR's Mess one is unbelieveable I know, but very true and I get utterly pissed off with the standards entering the bastion that was once above all standards. Without wishing to sound an 'old and stupid' git, it is more or less as 'sparkerbunting' states, some of them are promoted far too early and do not understand the behaviour expected of them in a WO & SR's Mess, even though are often rebriefed by many, especially us older hands. I also blame the Mess Presidents of any Mess who let them get away with behaviour like that.

An example of one particular CPO I have seen lately during a BOST. In 2002 I saw him when he had just picked up his hook as a young tiffy. He is now a CPO and has feck all conception of the way discipline or taking charge of a body of men. I am not jealous or bitter just because he is a Tiff, I am purely stating facts. You do the maths, Killick to CPO in less than 4 years.

Anyway, enough of my ranting on a pleasant Sunday afternoon. Civvie street beckons very soon and I honestly cannot wait to leave.

 

[PompeySailor]

The simple answer is to start running them. Standing Orders/Daily Orders are quite explicit, and will back you up. I see so many SRs who are scared of being thought of as a barsteward, and too many LHs are "mates" with their subordinates. If you think in this way, then you are breeding problems. Heard a story about an Admiral who was so fed up with not receiving marks of respect that he started giving perpetrators a lift. However, the lift was to wherever he was going, and they had to make their own way back! Standards have gone south, no doubt about it, but it needs more proactivity from management to fix it - turning a blind eye will only see it getting worse.

 

[clanky]

Many really dont have a full handle on the required standard. I see this as being linked to a general lack of formality in society. This is reflected by the number of people in public life who choose to dress like chavs. It doesnt just affect the Mob, look at anyone who wears a uniform for a living, from coppers to postmen, they won't be as well turned out as they might have been 30 years ago. If you talk to younger people about this issue they are genuinely mystified as to why they should wear headress when wearing rig in public. I've even had to rebrief a RM CPL as to why its neccesary to wear his beret whilst on watch on the gangway! I'm not stating this as a justification, just pointing out the facts as I see them.
I would agree with the point about people getting their rates too early. The onset of the ET branch(min 6yrs to PO)will help alleviate that problem.

The issue of standards in the mess was certainly being addessed in the last mess that I lived in, though once aagain it was the younger members of the mess who where most mystfied as to why they could,nt go to scran in trackies and flip-flops!

 

[SILVER_FOX]

PompeySailor: Unfortunately the problem in running them these days is the enormous amount of red tape and paperwork to get through before you can put them up at the XO's table. Still no excuse not to though.