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Mutinies, dropped hatches and down tools...

Seaweed said:
Jack trooped for something sufficiently serious for the OOD to be required by the regulations to order him into Close Arrest (OODs had no discretion in this whatever - aim is to stop Jack doing something daft and making his position even worse).

This OOD was quite the nicest officer in the ship, Old Etonian, polite to everybody, never got promoted. OOD: 'Commander's Report, Close Arrest.' Defaulter: 'I'll give you f..ing close arrest!!', leans across the table, THUMP!. Striking Superior Officer added to charge sheet. The only incident of striking an officer I can recall from all those years. Two hundred years earlier that would have got Jack triced up the grating for a 48.

One hundred years ago Jack would have been hanged!
 
Always_a_Civvy said:
Seaweed said:
Jack trooped for something sufficiently serious for the OOD to be required by the regulations to order him into Close Arrest (OODs had no discretion in this whatever - aim is to stop Jack doing something daft and making his position even worse).

This OOD was quite the nicest officer in the ship, Old Etonian, polite to everybody, never got promoted. OOD: 'Commander's Report, Close Arrest.' Defaulter: 'I'll give you f..ing close arrest!!', leans across the table, THUMP!. Striking Superior Officer added to charge sheet. The only incident of striking an officer I can recall from all those years. Two hundred years earlier that would have got Jack triced up the grating for a 48.

One hundred years ago Jack would have been hanged!

Steve

I00 years ago they had the power to hang Jack but in Edwardian times it would never have happened.

Nutty
 
PartTimer said:
There is a very inetresting, but unfortuantely classified, book about mutinies and other similar events over the decades in the RN, and how they were dealt with it (or not as the case may be). One I particularly remember from the book was a cruiser in the 1930s - ships company muster aft. Unpopular order given and ships company almost mutinies, only saved by RM Sergeant at the back of the gathering who sees the trouble brewing andf double marches his RM squad straight through the centre of the assembled company, splitting up the crowd and thus reducing tension.

You Poms are a secretive lot! There is very interesting and totally unclassified book about mutinies and similar events in the RAN, written by LCDR Tom Frame, called, obviously "Mutiny". I lent my copy to a mate several years ago and never got it back! I had not realised that in 80 odd years of existance there could be so many organised disputes with authority.
 
I think Part Timer is referring to CB 3027 and 3027A, which are historical accounts of Naval Mutinies ( copies of this are like gold dust if you can ever see them): there is also CB 3326 " The Maintenance of Discipline in the Royal Navy". For those with an interest in particular mutinies and access to the National Archive, try searching the catalogue under ADM 156 and 178. For those old enough to remember the IVESTON fiasco, look under ADM 330. Saw most of these when I was at MoD when the Open Government Intiative happened in the late 80s/early90s. They show how the Admiralty crapped on the Invergordon mutineers with their promises of "no recriminations" after the incident. I particularly recommend reading the accounts of mutinies on the APOLLO in Guzz in 1958, NORTHWAY and LOTHIAN in 1945 - no OPSEC or PERSEC involved, all freely available at Kew.
 
In_my_day said:
...Sorry SPB but history is fact and many a mutiny feature large in RN history and have helped make the RN what it is today(an overworked, underfunded coastal defence force!!).

IMD

Erm, I've not posted on this thread for a variety of reasons, but I assume you were referring to PTP, who you quoted in your post?!

Apology acepted...

SPB

:?
 
it was one of the monthly books in the squadron office, i got caught reading it, one of the biggest bollockings i ever had.
I heard a story that in 82, a certain ships guncrew didnt turn to, it was named after a rough scottish town, never had it confirmed.
 
CB 3326 was available to every ship in the Fleet, but not to anyone outside the Wardroom - I wonder why ? Were they afraid that now Jack had learned to read and write, their position was threatened ? And if CB 3027 fell into the wrong hands ? Feck me, the whole Country would be under threat ? Bollocks, it's all down to keeping the ruling classes in power.
 
sgtpepperband said:
In_my_day said:
...Sorry SPB but history is fact and many a mutiny feature large in RN history and have helped make the RN what it is today(an overworked, underfunded coastal defence force!!).

IMD

Erm, I've not posted on this thread for a variety of reasons, but I assume you were referring to PTP, who you quoted in your post?!

Apology acepted...

SPB

:?

A bit of a cross thread post. You said in the "mutiny on a 42" or something similar about whether we should be talking about them (mutinies). I think so; if only for education. It would be strange that we can discuss failures at FOST, failures of COs of boarding parties, Admirals who get HMG jobs, etc but not about lower deck problems of the most serious kind. Now many are obviously very sensitive (I'll reply to Nutty seperately) about this but if they've happened they are fact. What we should be saying is what can we learn about why they happened, command and leadership, the Moral Component of warfare, morale and operation tempo, etc. Besides that they can make a good dit, can they not!

IMD
 
Nutty said:
In_my_day said:
PartTimePongo said:
Well said Nutty. Personally, I'd prefer any anecdotes on this subject to be so old , they were written by candlelight with a quill and carry the seal of Admiral Lord Effingham.

In other words, do NOT be specific.

ie.

Ship - Skimmer/Boat
Location - On the Briney/alongside somewhere on Planet Earth
Year - 20th Century.

You get the drift.

PTP

Well, let me ask a question that accords with this (if it's possible). Was there a incident on a skimmer in the Southern Briney during a particular mass gathering of the of the RN. Dit is a certain dept locked themselves in their messdeck and another dept went to persuade them to return to duty. The skimmer then moved from present position and role East to a less arduous (dangerous) task? Told to me by Det Cpl of the !@#$%^&*+ and confirmed in a roundabout way by the Nav of the same when I worked for him several years later (!@#$%^&*+ was not the ship and did a first class piece of work on the gunline)

Sorry SPB but history is fact and many a mutiny feature large in RN history and have helped make the RN what it is today(an overworked, underfunded coastal defence force!!).

IMD

IMD

If you feel that this historical information should be published on this Forum then perhaps YOU should do so quoting names, dates, ships, locations and your sources.

If you are not prepared to do that or are uncertain of your facts then shut the **** up.

Nutty

Don't be so touchy. I was trying to comply with PTP by not specifically mentioning names. Besides which, what are the names you want, the Cpl, the Nav (obviously not as is accepted), the ships, well I did ask a question rather than state fact, however...


chockhead819 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Mutinies, dropped hatches and down tools...

it was one of the monthly books in the squadron office, i got caught reading it, one of the biggest bollockings i ever had.
I heard a story that in 82, a certain ships guncrew didnt turn to, it was named after a rough scottish town, never had it confirmed.

I will ask the guy that told me when I next speak to him and maybe he won't mind if I quote him as "a source close to...".

IMD
 
lsadirty said:
CB 3326 was available to every ship in the Fleet, but not to anyone outside the Wardroom - I wonder why ? Were they afraid that now Jack had learned to read and write, their position was threatened ? And if CB 3027 fell into the wrong hands ? Feck me, the whole Country would be under threat ? Bollocks, it's all down to keeping the ruling classes in power.

CB3326. I have read this document, (as far as I'm aware, it is a part of the declassified OOD's safe contents) and to be honest, it was the biggest pile of shite going. Typical case of pissed up Jack wanting to straighten out the kinks post run ashore and lamentable small ships lacklustre leadership which exacerbated the problem. Mutinies are rare - dropped hatches and down tools even more so. Maybe this is indicative of a tolerant, compliant workforce or that fact that Jack is programmed to whinge but still get on with the shitty lottle job. I've seen insubordination (in one case mass insubordination), but like the Invergordon mutiny, the big man always wins in the end.

So far, anyway.

Levers
 
Some interesting reading in the National Archives at Kew:

ADM 116/6425 (HMS Apollo) 1958

ADM 330/38 (HMS Iveston) 1970
 
What made the APOLLO incident even worse was the CO and XO tried to keep things under wraps: the local C-in-C was phoned by the local DAILY MIRROR reporter and asked what did he have to say about a mutiny on one of his ships. To make things even worse, she was the flagship of C-in-C Home Fleet.
 
Interesting as a Junior Officer I would do the dutiful thing and walk my patch talking to the chaps. Boots fit, mail getting through - that kind of thing. I would come away thinking morale was rock bottom and only a spark away from mutiny.

As time went on I began to notice the different between moans and real concerns. The less vocal and more calm about a situation someone was meant I took notice. Often what was wanted was for someone to listen and give them the reason why. Also you get to know which of the team are barrack room lawyers who just moan. You need to stop them getting to the newbies.

Have had a few insubordination cases (not to me but all AB to PO - don't know why). each dealt with varying from CPO one way chat with no tea and stickies in Gunners Store to full table and warrant. Each case sticks in my mind as leadership (lack of it or wrong type) was the prime cause. And never a one off event. Always there would be some lead in to the situation.

Advice for the young officer - walk your patch and talk to people. But more importantly listen to them and if there is a real case do something about it. They may not have had all the information but you can find out and get back to them. Morale is directly linked to leadership. If people trust you, respect you and feel part of the team these kinds of situations don't happen. Don't mistake like and be friendly as the same. Your troops don't want a best friend they want a leader who will look after them and keep them safe (with the occasional make and mends). And remember you are not alone, talk to the Chiefs and Senior Officers - they will have seen it all before and can provided help and guidance.

For those that feel wronged don't sit in silence. Talk to someone - you never know you might be in the right! That is what the divisional system is for
 

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