More Defence Cuts?

Karma

War Hero
Although not on the same scale cost-wise we could reasonably say what was the use of the Field Gun and Mast Manning at the Royal Tournament.
 
Karma said:
Although not on the same scale cost-wise we could reasonably say what was the use of the Field Gun and Mast Manning at the Royal Tournament.
They were the ONLY reason I went to the Royal Tournament... oh and the window ladder display, but only when the RN did it :lol:
 

Karma

War Hero
benjymo said:
Exactly and where is the Royal tournament now!
Whoosh

*note to self, avoid subtlety*

The point there is that the whole Royal Tournament went, so there was no justification for an independent existence of the individual events within it to continue. However the value as a recruiting tool was immense.

Without getting into a long and tedious staff course diatribe, the services in general need to have a profile with the sponsors. Those sponsors who would much rather see government buying more and more hospitals that can stand empty because of staff shortages than more and more defense when we're involved in unpopular and poorly understood conflicts. The same sponsors that sign off consent forms for our recruits coming through the gate at Raleigh, a stream of people we couldn't survive without.

The Red Arrows may not have a military purpose as such, but they keep the RAF in the public eye in a reasonably benign way. A very expensive way of doing it, but it manages. I'm not sure what the return on investment might actually be, but the crabs in general seem to think it is worth it, and in a way I'd agree. the more we distance ourselves from the sponsors the less likely we are to actually get the money out of Treasury that we need to continue doing the job.

In comparison the RN has an annual Brickwoods competition at Collingwood and a presentation team who speak to WI meetings around the country. And Loose Page..........
 

stumpy

War Hero
Personally I think that the Field Gun did have an affect upon operational efficiency, as when they left their three month stint (and only once every three years) they returned to their ships, fitter than before. I would have loved to have had a couple of Field Gunners in my section base.

But with regard tothe Red Arrows, yes it would be sad to see them go, but I would rather see them go than operational units such as the Type 23s. And don't get me started on the Army's hundreds of horses used for ceremonial etc etc. How much does all that cost? And scrapping them could generate money as the horses could be sold for dog food... :twisted: (Only joking! Of course they should be pensioned off to live in nice retirment paddoks with better accom than most service people...)
 

copenhagencup

Lantern Swinger
Karma said:
benjymo said:
Exactly and where is the Royal tournament now!
Whoosh

*note to self, avoid subtlety*

The point there is that the whole Royal Tournament went, so there was no justification for an independent existence of the individual events within it to continue. However the value as a recruiting tool was immense.

Without getting into a long and tedious staff course diatribe, the services in general need to have a profile with the sponsors. Those sponsors who would much rather see government buying more and more hospitals that can stand empty because of staff shortages than more and more defense when we're involved in unpopular and poorly understood conflicts. The same sponsors that sign off consent forms for our recruits coming through the gate at Raleigh, a stream of people we couldn't survive without.

The Red Arrows may not have a military purpose as such, but they keep the RAF in the public eye in a reasonably benign way. A very expensive way of doing it, but it manages. I'm not sure what the return on investment might actually be, but the crabs in general seem to think it is worth it, and in a way I'd agree. the more we distance ourselves from the sponsors the less likely we are to actually get the money out of Treasury that we need to continue doing the job.

In comparison the RN has an annual Brickwoods competition at Collingwood and a presentation team who speak to WI meetings around the country. And Loose Page..........
Absolute crap Karma
Field gun has gone the rest remains.
Kings troop RHA
Queens colour squadron RAF Reg
Police dog display teams
Countless F*cking bands
Loads of mounted shite with no relevance to the modern day battlefield.

Having been there in person 5 times and having the greatest leadership course available to RN ratings it taught me about myself and the limits of others and how to maximise the synergy of a team.

At the end of the day it was unsustainable for 2 reasons.

1. With the reduction in manpower the loss of circa 180 good blokes is unsustainable. for 5 months a year.

2. Officers could not run thus most did not care and it is they who make the decisions stand fast those who did care

It is indicative of service cuts today as with early 1990`s redudancies the RN made significant cuts the other 2 services paid lip service.

Why are 22500 sqaddies still in Germany, no threat there.

What do the RAF actually do that makes us proud, 1940 was 67 years ago lets move on and get some value for money out of them.
 

copenhagencup

Lantern Swinger
clanky said:
IIRC the manpower bill for the FGT was equivalent to manning a T22/42 for a year.
Well there are another 6 tied up to the wall what are we waiting for lets book Earls Court for the last 3 weeks in July
 

onions

GCM
I see that the Rd Arrows budget has been increased by another half million
pounds to 5.6 mill. One MP said that "It is conceivable (there's that word again) that they should be axed". Their future location is also being considered. Cardiff airport maybe?

Keep Striving.
 

Karma

War Hero
copenhagencup said:
Absolute crap Karma
Which bit in particular? My thoughts about the FGT, which I do see as a great loss? Or the need to remain engaged with the taxpayer who actually pays the salary?

1. With the reduction in manpower the loss of circa 180 good blokes is unsustainable. for 5 months a year.
Fully agree with that, but there could have been ways round it. The snag is we'd have ended up with a cadre of FGs seeing at as a career path. Viable but probably not defensible.

It is indicative of service cuts today as with early 1990`s redudancies the RN made significant cuts the other 2 services paid lip service.
And that is exactly the point I'm making, the RN has a piss poor public profile. The FG runs etc made a huge difference to our profile and our presence in the publics mind. Since we now have an extremely low profile in the media then we're left on the back foot when the public do see a local presence from the Army or the RAF.

Personally I think our whole public profile needs a serious going over, the problem is now that we've got rid of such resource intensive programmes, like FG, we can't justify the money to get back into it.

What do the RAF actually do that makes us proud, 1940 was 67 years ago lets move on and get some value for money out of them.
Now that's a whole different debate and having been round that particular buoy many, many times I'm still not convinced of why we have them. But we do, and we need to get on with it.
 

copenhagencup

Lantern Swinger
Karma said:
copenhagencup said:
Absolute crap Karma
Which bit in particular? My thoughts about the FGT, which I do see as a great loss? Or the need to remain engaged with the taxpayer who actually pays the salary?

1. With the reduction in manpower the loss of circa 180 good blokes is unsustainable. for 5 months a year.
Fully agree with that, but there could have been ways round it. The snag is we'd have ended up with a cadre of FGs seeing at as a career path. Viable but probably not defensible.

It is indicative of service cuts today as with early 1990`s redudancies the RN made significant cuts the other 2 services paid lip service.
And that is exactly the point I'm making, the RN has a piss poor public profile. The FG runs etc made a huge difference to our profile and our presence in the publics mind. Since we now have an extremely low profile in the media then we're left on the back foot when the public do see a local presence from the Army or the RAF.

Personally I think our whole public profile needs a serious going over, the problem is now that we've got rid of such resource intensive programmes, like FG, we can't justify the money to get back into it.

What do the RAF actually do that makes us proud, 1940 was 67 years ago lets move on and get some value for money out of them.
Now that's a whole different debate and having been round that particular buoy many, many times I'm still not convinced of why we have them. But we do, and we need to get on with it.
The point there is that the whole Royal Tournament went, so there was no justification for an independent existence of the individual events within it to continue. However the value as a recruiting tool was immense.

The bit about individual existence while all the others remain, WTF is a FGT it is a Field Gun Crew
 

Karma

War Hero
copenhagencup said:
The bit about individual existence while all the others remain.
OK, I acknowledge that I wasn't clear about the fact that I only meant the bits that the RN funded.

In practical terms the others can reasonably easily get out and perform at lots of county shows and similar things with minimal extra expense, time or significant effort. A couple of buses and a lorry is about what you need for most of them, plus they won't tear up the local public park, standfast KTRHA.

Kings Troop does some ceremonial in the city, November Ceremonies springs to mind, and it has a role in State Funerals. I am, OTOH, aware of a debate around its future at the moment.

It's all about keeping the taxpayer on-side and happy to keep funding defence, the other services are happy to invest in these things, but then it's easier investment than the Field Gun.

In the absence of a Royal Tournament where were we going to run the competition, on national television?

Like I said above, Brickwoods has an impact in the area around Fareham and Gosport. It's not like we don't have a fair profile around there already so is it a useful return? The documentary a year or so ago which focussed on Plymouth gave it some coverage but that was lost on most. Even in the RN community I know of people who missed the point of that and thought that the FG competition had become the Brickwoods competition!
 

dunkers

War Hero
benjymo said:
What use are they to defence anyway?
Certainly didn't have a negative effect on recruiting or Service pride. That's what use they are.

copenhagencup said:
Why are 22500 sqaddies still in Germany, no threat there.
Because we don't have enough barracks in the UK to house 22,500 squaddies, nor the money to build them.
 

stumpy

War Hero
dunkers said:
benjymo said:
What use are they to defence anyway?
Certainly didn't have a negative effect on recruiting or Service pride. That's what use they are.

copenhagencup said:
Why are 22500 sqaddies still in Germany, no threat there.
Because we don't have enough barracks in the UK to house 22,500 squaddies, nor the money to build them.
Meanwhile the RAF is about to sell off half its bases )most with good accom) while we leave 22,500 soldiers in Germany... a good example of joined up government...
 

Karma

War Hero
higthepig said:
Brickwoods? I`ve seen it once and cringed with shame, if thats supposed to be a field gun run, then its pathetic.
I did it in the early 90's, still extremely good for teamwork and leadership, but I'd agree that it's not the same. Training in the early morning and at lunchtimes over a flat course in no way compares to the level of commitment needed for the real thing.
 
someone beat me to it but i would like to restate what the FF is the point of the horses on london and as for the bloody RAF dogs presentation team about. i can watch crufts to see dogs prance - god it makes me mad.

got to go and have a lie down
 
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