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Minewarfare — A Serious Gap

We perhaps need to remember 2 significant points:

a. there's no DPA. There's a DE&S that has the advantage of being responsible for the whole CADMID cycle. No more "my bit was alright" arguments.

b. the funding for most UORs is deducted from allocations in later years. They are not buckets of new money from the Treasury.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
"the funding for most UORs is deducted from allocations in later years. They are not buckets of new money from the Treasury. "

Depends on the UOR - if its from the reserve then its usually new money. It if its been deducted from the longer EP, then that usually means its not come through on UOR terms, or has been funded into core, and thus cuts are made elsewhere to accommodate. There are four or five different routes for the securing of funding for UORs.
 

beer_bosun

Lantern Swinger
itsamuppet said:
Was there any mention of the Shallow Water Influnce team being manned by the RNR. this was a vital part of the minewarfare effort during Op Telic 1 and did have 3 members of the RNR in the team albeit at the last minute. This together with the Remus role would be ideal for those of us that now find ourselves guarding RFA's because we don't want to be stuck in an MCMA TA for the rest of our RNR career.

I think it would be good for the RNR to have a tasking like this though I doubt it would necessarily be used abroad - I can see the case for a REMUS team to be stationed in the UK carrying out searches of harbours and esturaies on weekends. Anything MLO's found can then be specially tasked to MCM1/2 as required.

It would add another purpose to the RNR in the UK and give us a role in the same vain as SPF - something the Navy needs that we can provide that doesn't take much support from the RN (Impacts on servicing and deploying REMUS exempted).
 

UXBDIVER

Badgeman
I have been watching this thread for some time and it seems to have digressed into something else, albeit vaguely related to the initialy post.

Forgive me for being a complete idiot but ive been lost amongst the abreviations and jargon shared by a few privelaged members.
That said If I can put my slant on things and get some feed back that would be great.

Under Water Force Protection(UWFP) is still very much the remit of Regular serving Divers, and was conceived on the back of what regular ships divers used to do for decades. In fact in my opinion in varies little from what they used to do execpt for the procurement of a lot of expensive kit.
That said the new SOP's were all trialed and rattified by a certain chief (MBE thank you very much) and MCDO before they left to pursue a career in a very similar industry.

The new RNR divers, 3 teams of 12 apparently, seem to be a very illusive bunch as there's not a lot of info on their future roles and funding.

Has anybody got any real information on their recognised role and how they are going to be employed.
Believe me I've heard all the buzzes and I know of a few who have passed the course but the fact remains that unless they get the nod to handle explosives, how effective are they to be?

The last lot of RNR divers were ex-CD's anyway and were employed in Gulf 1 and 2 to sit around waiting for RN ships to arrive do a quick swim through and get back to their pinocoladas.
Most of these guys were commercial lads called up by the RN and said thanks very much make sure you pay us our daily commercial wage and we'll be more than happy to do that job.

As for REMUS, there is a team of regular CD's that operate that system now. Cant see why that couldnt be the remit of a team of RNR Mine Warfare and Divers, some of which would be ex regular CD's and would have knowledge of it anyway.

UWFP in my opnion is still a very grey area even for regular CD's. Big call to make as a Captain to send down a team of CD's on a known limpet instead of just evacuating a ship in harbour me thinks.

UXBD
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Won't one of the problems be (if they ever work out the real requirement) how to intially man it then sustain it creating a 'career' stream with enough people to fill a training/employment pipeline.

I can sort of agree there seems to be a requirement what I can't see if how the RNR could fill it if even the RN are struggling to get CD/Divers. All the same company facing the same problems.
 

UXBDIVER

Badgeman
I don't know exactly how it works, but think it probably goes like this:

1. Identify the requirement.
2. Approve the Funding.
3. Create the Protocol.
4. Train the Personel.
5. Establish the Teams and response to the requirement.

Thats probably far too consice but still comes down to money unfortunately.

As for the requirement, you can probably envisage any senario its only a matter of time before it manifests itself. That said a pro-active approach is always better than a reactive one.

UXBD
 

beer_bosun

Lantern Swinger
wave_dodger said:
Won't one of the problems be (if they ever work out the real requirement) how to intially man it then sustain it creating a 'career' stream with enough people to fill a training/employment pipeline.

Yes I can see that without the drive and enthusiasm to see this through, it will fail. SPF came out of the old SEA branch which went through a few cycles before finally "getting" a role. It seems to have worked there despite putting a fair few noses out of joint along the way.

I can sort of agree there seems to be a requirement what I can't see if how the RNR could fill it if even the RN are struggling to get CD/Divers. All the same company facing the same problems.

Unsure here - I'm not a diver (well not in the diving branch anyway). I don't think it is suggested that the RNR is supposed to "replace" the RN in this role - there are various streams of diving. I think its more to do with checking out harbours before ships arrive - if something is found, then the CD deal with it - not sure if part of the "dive" team will include a CD for this purpose.

My hope is that the MW side of things gets REMUS responsibilites.
 

beer_bosun

Lantern Swinger
UXBDIVER said:
I don't know exactly how it works, but think it probably goes like this:

1. Identify the requirement.
2. Approve the Funding.
3. Create the Protocol.
4. Train the Personel.
5. Establish the Teams and response to the requirement.

Thats probably far too consice but still comes down to money unfortunately.

As for the requirement, you can probably envisage any senario its only a matter of time before it manifests itself. That said a pro-active approach is always better than a reactive one.

UXBD

Sounds about right - just hope the money is found to meet the requirements.
 

UXBDIVER

Badgeman
beer_bosun said:
wave_dodger said:
Won't one of the problems be (if they ever work out the real requirement) how to intially man it then sustain it creating a 'career' stream with enough people to fill a training/employment pipeline.

Yes I can see that without the drive and enthusiasm to see this through, it will fail. SPF came out of the old SEA branch which went through a few cycles before finally "getting" a role. It seems to have worked there despite putting a fair few noses out of joint along the way.

I can sort of agree there seems to be a requirement what I can't see if how the RNR could fill it if even the RN are struggling to get CD/Divers. All the same company facing the same problems.

Unsure here - I'm not a diver (well not in the diving branch anyway). I don't think it is suggested that the RNR is supposed to "replace" the RN in this role - there are various streams of diving. I think its more to do with checking out harbours before ships arrive - if something is found, then the CD deal with it - not sure if part of the "dive" team will include a CD for this purpose.

My hope is that the MW side of things gets REMUS responsibilites.


I think that was the idea when REMUS was first trialed.
MW lads manned a potable ops unit ie( chacon )full of vdus and other computer gear. I remember the fantastic images we got back from it when we dived on contacts it picked up in the Thames. Ideal in zero vis as it pretty much outlined the contacts so we didnt bother diving on tyres and the like.
That set up would be ideal for the RNR lads.

UXBD
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
UXBDIVER said:
I don't know exactly how it works, but think it probably goes like this:

1. Identify the requirement.
2. Approve the Funding.
3. Create the Protocol.
4. Train the Personel.
5. Establish the Teams and response to the requirement.

As for the requirement, you can probably envisage any scenario its only a matter of time before it manifests itself. That said a pro-active approach is always better than a reactive one.
UXBD

I agree, I was thinking along the lines of manpower. There are 2 "new" requirements that I am aware of currently (not including this) both make absolute sense and have been endorsed but both need about 250+ people from all ranks/rates. The problem is you can't just have that, you need to recruit, train and develop it to get to the point at which "it/they" have the experiences/skills and capabilities to meet the requirement, all of which takes a long time.

Harking back to the "the RN is shit thread"..When you look at issues like these we were scuppered 15-20 years ago. Sod all point blaming todays 1*-3* they've just inherited a mess to try and patch together.
 

UXBDIVER

Badgeman
Are these 2 RNR requirements?
I suppose if they are, its feasable to persue them as you would be less likely to care what direction or capacity you would be employed as an RNR serviceman as your time commitment would be relatively small.
Is seems the processes and directive are in a state of flux. How else could you explain the apparent indescision regarding RNR divers roles.
I dont know what the No's requirement for RNR divers is but I cant see it being anywhere near 250.
If they cannot even secure a career path for 3 teams of 12, how will they cope with a much larger demand in other branches?

It also seems that once anyone 3* enters the playing field, he moves on before he can create any significant change or deal with the nightmare he has inherited from his predecessor.

UXBD
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Neither are specific to the RNR but both are related and could use RNR manpower although the idea is to grow a full-time RN capability with career paths. I'd like to say more but will probbaly get something quite close to me detached.....
 

UXBDIVER

Badgeman
Se la vie.
This is an any mouse forum unless you think youve disclosed too much so as to compromise your identity, in which case thanks for your input. :?:

UXBD
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Its not my identity shipper, I just don't know how much I can/should be released before its properly broadcast.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Why, you going to run up a cheeky curry for us? Good idea I could do with something to feed my hangover :cuddle:
 
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