Minewarfare — A Serious Gap

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Sorry it's all true! HERRICK is now a campaign, HMT and MOD have agreed (initial est 1 epoch).

ECC are the people who look at capability/capability insertion and decide what is scheduled or put up as an option to be put into core by developing the business case for the JCb to endorse. DEP run the EP but take guidance from ECC. All of this is the now state there are big changes in the centre looming.

I work in NCHQ :whew:
 
who_blue said:
Purple_twiglet said:
WD - PM sent.

Just as it was getting interesting... :D

Please excuse ignorance but what is a UOR?

A UOR is an Urgent Operational Requirement, normally raised to procure equipment urgently needed for a specific operation. Support funding usually ceases when the operation has been completed. If the equipment has been leased, it is returned to the provider.
 

Karma

War Hero
who_blue said:
Please excuse ignorance but what is a UOR?

Urgent Operational Requirement. Essentially a solution to a problem we hadn't realised we had which can be procured and delivered reasonably quickly with quite a lot less of the governance required in the normal Equipment Plan. In that sense I agree with both N_G and W_D. UORs aren't intended to be persistent, the capability gap should, in principle, then come into the EP and be dealt with through the proper process. In practice they just end up in competition with the big money pits and frequently fail to get through, so we end up running UORs through without proper support. The odd few do get brought across into core and the support mechanisms reverse engineered, but most just have to keep running forward on the basis of accounting smoke and mirrors and a lot of effort on the basis of individuals.

The system does tend to get abused by some quarters though, which undermines things a bit. Diemacos for 16AAB springs to mind as a hardy perennial.

In principle normal business shouldn't need them and while Treasury didn't pay too much attention in the wind up to Telic since about '05 they've been a bit more detailed in their questioning of why a UOR happens to be ''urgent'' or hasn't been addressed elsewhere.

fwiw I found that getting a UOR out the door was probably the most satisfying bit of the DPA job.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
To echo Karma, the UOR process is a great process for getting kit into service in a hurry where there is a clear urgent requirement to do so. As TELIC / HERRICK carry on, HMT is understandably asking why we're failing to plan for the long haul in terms of the requirements out there.

They are great when someone says "buy me a capability to defeat this immensley specific threat for this sole theatre". No problems there, but when someone says "I'd like a new toy to do X, Y, Z and by the way it could also do it elsewhere too" - thats when HMT start getting concerned. We're very good at abusing a useful system!
 

who_blue

Badgeman
Again excuse my ignorance re: UOR procurements however could you clarify a few other points.

1) Is there the capability/training to maintain/service/supply these within the forces e.g. the challenges faced with armour and the engines in sandy climates?

2) If not, do we then have to seek civilian contracting and indeed is this preferable?

3) Who provides the oversight and checks the fitness of purpose for UOR? Is it the DPA/Treasury/Operational Command?
 

Karma

War Hero
who_blue said:
1) Is there the capability/training to maintain/service/supply these within the forces

The main reason that it's easier and cheaper to get UOR in service is because they don't come with a long term training or support package. It's a cost/ benefit balance really. It depends what they are, but the ones I've dealt with have a lifed stores outfit and either ''train the trainer'' or ''train the first user and hope they pass it on'' approach...

They're not usually intended to go on for long.


2) If not, do we then have to seek civilian contracting and indeed is this preferable?

Depends. In the long run it works out more expensive to bring in a UOR then try to make it an enduring capability, but you get it in service doing the job. CLS is one way to try to mitigate for that, but you lose some benefits by doing that.

3) Who provides the oversight and checks the fitness of purpose for UOR? Is it the DPA/Treasury/Operational Command?

Again it depends, usually they're delivered by DPA and the Op Command.
 
We perhaps need to remember 2 significant points:

a. there's no DPA. There's a DE&S that has the advantage of being responsible for the whole CADMID cycle. No more "my bit was alright" arguments.

b. the funding for most UORs is deducted from allocations in later years. They are not buckets of new money from the Treasury.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
"the funding for most UORs is deducted from allocations in later years. They are not buckets of new money from the Treasury. "

Depends on the UOR - if its from the reserve then its usually new money. It if its been deducted from the longer EP, then that usually means its not come through on UOR terms, or has been funded into core, and thus cuts are made elsewhere to accommodate. There are four or five different routes for the securing of funding for UORs.
 

beer_bosun

Lantern Swinger
itsamuppet said:
Was there any mention of the Shallow Water Influnce team being manned by the RNR. this was a vital part of the minewarfare effort during Op Telic 1 and did have 3 members of the RNR in the team albeit at the last minute. This together with the Remus role would be ideal for those of us that now find ourselves guarding RFA's because we don't want to be stuck in an MCMA TA for the rest of our RNR career.

I think it would be good for the RNR to have a tasking like this though I doubt it would necessarily be used abroad - I can see the case for a REMUS team to be stationed in the UK carrying out searches of harbours and esturaies on weekends. Anything MLO's found can then be specially tasked to MCM1/2 as required.

It would add another purpose to the RNR in the UK and give us a role in the same vain as SPF - something the Navy needs that we can provide that doesn't take much support from the RN (Impacts on servicing and deploying REMUS exempted).
 

UXBDIVER

Badgeman
I have been watching this thread for some time and it seems to have digressed into something else, albeit vaguely related to the initialy post.

Forgive me for being a complete idiot but ive been lost amongst the abreviations and jargon shared by a few privelaged members.
That said If I can put my slant on things and get some feed back that would be great.

Under Water Force Protection(UWFP) is still very much the remit of Regular serving Divers, and was conceived on the back of what regular ships divers used to do for decades. In fact in my opinion in varies little from what they used to do execpt for the procurement of a lot of expensive kit.
That said the new SOP's were all trialed and rattified by a certain chief (MBE thank you very much) and MCDO before they left to pursue a career in a very similar industry.

The new RNR divers, 3 teams of 12 apparently, seem to be a very illusive bunch as there's not a lot of info on their future roles and funding.

Has anybody got any real information on their recognised role and how they are going to be employed.
Believe me I've heard all the buzzes and I know of a few who have passed the course but the fact remains that unless they get the nod to handle explosives, how effective are they to be?

The last lot of RNR divers were ex-CD's anyway and were employed in Gulf 1 and 2 to sit around waiting for RN ships to arrive do a quick swim through and get back to their pinocoladas.
Most of these guys were commercial lads called up by the RN and said thanks very much make sure you pay us our daily commercial wage and we'll be more than happy to do that job.

As for REMUS, there is a team of regular CD's that operate that system now. Cant see why that couldnt be the remit of a team of RNR Mine Warfare and Divers, some of which would be ex regular CD's and would have knowledge of it anyway.

UWFP in my opnion is still a very grey area even for regular CD's. Big call to make as a Captain to send down a team of CD's on a known limpet instead of just evacuating a ship in harbour me thinks.

UXBD
 
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