Midshipman as a Graduate UY?

Discussion in 'Joining Up - Royal Navy Recruiting' started by Chalky, Aug 11, 2008.

Welcome to the Navy Net aka Rum Ration

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial RN website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Hi all,

    I start at BRNC as a UY in September, and have just received my joining pack which states I will have the substantive rank of Midshipman. The standard explanatory pamphlet states that this has been calculated taking into account my time served (less than a year in the Navy) and that my qualifications aren't taken into account as a UY and that I will get my subby when I have achieved the appropriate level of seniority.

    I can't help feeling this is either wrongly assessed or if it is correct then it seems slightly unfair as any DE with the same level of qualifications and less experience of the RN or otherwise will be joining with the added seniority?

    Anyone care to help me out here?
  2. if that is the case. Time for a representation
  3. sounds ever so slightly crackers. Give 'em a ring and ask- if it is wrongly assessed then it'll get sorted out. If not, then follow the advice of Mr Grubber...

    Good luck
  4. actually, hang on- if it says that your quals won't be taken into account as an UY then that sounds like they really have decided to act like prats.

    Not sure how far a representation would get you personally, although it may make them stop and think so that someone else down the line doesn't dip out. Can't quite believe that would be the case- but if the explanatory docs say that then looks like it is.

    This is the mob after all, you can ask (and you bl**dy well ought to kick up a fuss because that is a ludicrous decision) but you might not get anything out of it. Sounds like you've been royally seen off though. Don't know if Ninja/Mario have any words of wisdom.....
  5. Intending to ring the AIB tomorrow and have a polite word, but I don't actually know if I have a leg to stand on, and all of my divisional staff are on summer leave!
  6. Why not wait 'til they get back then?

    If you do have a case and your rep/complaint is upheld, they should back-date your pay and seniority to what it should be, not when you got the ball rolling.

    Good Luck.
  7. Think I'll scope it out first of all. Could be something as simple as my quals not appearing on my RORRS. Will call my DO on return from leave if I don't get anywhere.
  8. If you don't mind my asking, what you in as/ going to be?

    Just as I myself have only just rejoined, but with the intention of going UY ASAP! (Ludicrous ideology behind it, I know....)

    -dmm :)
  9. I'm going in as an X(SM)
  10. choice or told? Are you a dabber source branch? Just being nosy, no need to answer!
  11. I'm sure you must have checked the rules before applying in which case you would know what rank you would be joining BRNC as? If not remember it's not all about rank, it's who you are at the end of the day and how you lead the team, 1 year in the RN will not exactly let you be the next Nelson, take your time, learn the trade and listen to your peers. Good luck and stop trying to grow older, your time as a Midshipman will allow you to make bucketfulls of mistakes as an officer and get away with it, albeit no submariner will allow you to! However most of the UY members of BRNC I met were Slt, WTF have you done? Only kidding.
  12. Appreciate the comment. Didn't really have much time to get into the nitty-gritty, as I only had 5 weeks between being asked to go for it and my AIB. My briefs never mentioned anything about Middie at all!

    I appreciate the point about learning the trade and growing older, but I'm 25 already. I've got a degree and I have some time in the armed forces under my belt, both here and as a pongo. I just find it peculiar that this hasn't been taken into account.

    Don't mean to seem impertinent, but I just feel I might not be judged on the same standard as my peers, let alone losing out on salary and adding another 2 years onto my promotion timeline! My situation is unfortunately not catered for in the system which, given that a lot more people will be coming through as I have done, suggests a flaw in the process as yet unaddressed.

    Still, these little mysteries will out at some point, I'm sure and I might be worrying over nothing. :)

    Edited to add: X(SM) was a choice, and proud :)
  13. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    It would probably help if the full story were told from the outset.

    Anyone with a degree would be advised to to at least talk to an ACLO prior to joining. Most people would be a trifle ill-advised to join on a starting income of £13,013 as a graduate rating as opposed to a graduate Officer on £28,216.

    That being the case, there may well have been several reasons why you joined as a rating. Three possibilities that spring to mind were:

    1) You failed AIB & opted to join as a rating with a view to becomining an Officer later.


    2) You were too old to pass AIB and start BRNC before your 26th birthday, so opted to join as a rating with a view to becomming an Officer later.


    3) Both.

    The rules are as follows:

    From 1 April 2007 a sliding scale of seniority based on Educational Qualifications was introduced. This scale is designed to reflect the more varied routes to a similar standard of qualification and is designed to widen the spread of applicants to the Naval Service. A summary of the scale is as follows:

    Masters Degree or Equivalent Antedated Seniority 3.5 yrs
    Graduate or equivalent 3 yrs
    Foundation Degree or equivalent HNC or Equivalent 1 yr
    Basic Entrant- GCSEs, GNVQ and A levels NIL

    These rules apply to mainstream X,E,L and RM officers. Existing rules will apply to E(TM/IS) entrants where credits for degree class and work experience will apply. UY/CC ENTRANTS.

    UY/CC entrants are likely to hold only the minimum officer entry qualifications but most join BRNC/CTCRM over the age of 21. Under current rules these UY/CCs join with 3 years seniority (Sub Lt + 1 Year). Unless special provision for UY/CCs was made, under the above rules based purely on Educational Qualifications, they would gain no antedated seniority having to join as Midshipman with no account taken of their previous Naval Service experience. UY/CCs will therefore be awarded up to 3 years seniority based on their experience since the age of 18 in recognition of their service as a former Rating/Other rank. No additional seniority based on educational qualifications will be made.

    Full years of service as rating since age of18 Rank/seniority – RN Rank (on entry) -RM Rank/seniority – RM after completion of Phase 2 training
    Less than 1 year Mid 2LT Lt
    1 year Mid with 1 years seniority 2LT Lt with 1 years seniority
    2 years S/Lt 2LT Lt with 2 years seniority
    3 years S/Lt 2LT Captain


    The introduction of JPA in November 2006 enabled the pay of new officer entrants to be harmonised across all 3 Armed Forces bringing the RN pay system into line with the Army and Royal Air Force. The main difference in the pay system is that non graduates will enter on a lower starting salary than graduates until they complete their initial officer training. From 1 April 2007 all non graduates join on OF1 Level 1 - £14349 pa until moving to OF1 Level 5 - £22680 on completing Initial Officer Training (on leaving Dartmouth or CTC Lympstone). They will then progress through the pay range by annual increments. On promotion to Sub Lieutenant they move to OF1 Level 6.

    Graduates join on OF1 Level 7 – £28216 depending on qualifications and then progress through the pay range by annual increments.

    It would indeed be interesting to find out why you didn't opt to join as a graduate officer from the outset, but good luck in your quest.
  14. Principal reason is even more simple. I wanted to become an Officer, but I wanted to do it having experienced being a rating first of all. My original intention was to either pass in as a UY if possible, or work hard towards my SUY. My motives were purely developmental. I'm not interested in the perceived merits of officerdom from the outset. I like to better myself and I felt, at the time, that I could do that first as a Rating and then as a Officer having taken the best opportunities of both.

    My reasoning was accepted fully by the AIB, and I was even commended for it.

    The issue now is not my motivation. I feel it is more to do with the fact that despite having worked hard and been recognised for this, I am disadvantaged from the outset despite standing on an equal footing, or indeed ahead, of those I will train with. It was the belief of myself and the Officers and Senior Rates who brought me this far in such a short time that this would not be the case, and I was never made aware of the possibility of anything different.

    As the route I have taken wasn't a classic CW route by any means, I think this method of assignation needs to be examined as there are now going to be more people coming through the accelerated pipeline behind me, all of whom will find themselves in the same position due to the limited amount of time they will have served and despite having HE qualifications.
  15. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    :thumright: The route you have taken is a classic route taken by those wishing to join the Warfare branch who are reaching maximum age for entry, so it's by no means uncommon.

    As regards seniority & ultimately the relationship with pay, there is indeed a sliding scale of seniority awarded with regard "time served", but under 12 months RN service does not meet the threshold unfortunately, not does unrelated "other service" time served unfortunately.

    If you were to be awarded the graduate rate of Officer seniority with a non-vocational degree (unlike Engineer, Padre or Medical graduates) then any rating joining with a non-vocational degree could claim discrimination because non-vocational Officers get over £28K with a degree that isn't necessary for the job. It is indeed unfortunate that you appear not to have been aware of this before you joined as a Rating.

    That aside, good luck with your future career, you should make up the difference in income within a year of promotion.
  16. Much obliged to you. :)
  17. can you help me too please ninja? i'm going down to sultan soon after i finish raleigh which i'm on summer holidays from just now but will go into week 7 when i go back. i joined up with a hnc aircraft engineering with a grade a and i joined as aet, would this do anything for me when i get down to sultan with fast-track or anything? i would also like to become an officer too but not sure how long i have to wait before i can apply. can i apply for UY within a year like chalky here? my do at raleigh says he can't do anything about getting my papers rasied just now, but i can start asking about it once i get to sultan - i just want to know as much as i can before i start speaking with my DO once i get down there.

    thanks in advance.
  18. The method they used for me is only being done through the Sub school for sub warfare officers at the moment. Not sure about any other branches.
  19. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Essentially, to become an Officer from within the service you must have a minimum of 5 GCSE's (including Maths & English) A*-C.

    With regard BTEC, HNC's, HND's, NVQ's & suchlike, AIB can advise on the equivalency of the qualification with regard Officer academic eligibility when you get to Sultan.

    The top 5% of AET trainees (ie:top 5% of ALL AETs- not just your class) maybe selected for fast-track Rating promotion based on their phase two training examination scores (outside exams are not taken into consideration).

    Even if you have a degree in aeronautical engineering, you will still need the basic GCSE's for promotion to Officer from within the service & from outside the service 180 UCAS points are required at A2 level in addition as a direct entry officer. Direct Entry Engineering (AE,WE or ME) Officers need to have a relevant Engineering or science based accredited degree upon joining.

    Hope that helps clarify.

Share This Page