Maybe we Should.....

[21_Man]

.....Consider the idea that the weakening of our Armed Services is part of a 'UK/European Socialist' plan to add support to the continuing moves to create a 'European Armed Force' ???.

Why would we want to support that? The Soviets proved beyond doubt that joining states; against their will, in many cases; does not work

History shows how well our individual countries have enjoyed each others company over the centuries.....at best, we tolerate each other....at times of need, few are at the front of the line to assist in a meaningful way....you only have to look at the record of the last 20 years or so

Have a think, have a care and above all, have a say :thumright:

 

[Passed-over_Loggie]

I've thought much the same over this probable hidden agenda for some time. It's interesting that you mention the Socialist dimension as it touches on points in http://www.navy-net.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=12365/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html

The EU has given these people far more opportunity than they had with NATO. Apart from the very small States like Luxembourg and Iceland, NATO expected member states to be militarily coherent and competent. The strength was force multiplication by mutual support. The EU is a different animal because those committed to it at the centre already seem to view it as just one big Country. This almost invites capability gaps. If, say, the RN was forced to reduce its ASW capability, perhaps the Cloggies could cover the gap.

This has a number of advantages for those who think that way. It forces us to be close to Europe because we would no longer have the choice. It would once and for all stop the UK from being a World force and influence. It would force us to offload our overseas territories and protectorates as we would no longer be able to guarantee cover. It would make our involvement in World conflicts more remote because we would as good as need permission to use what force elements remained. Given the way many other Europeans have responded to the 'Stan, for example, involvement would become most unlikely.

 

[asst_dep_to_dep_asst]

...... The EU is a different animal because those committed to it at the centre already seem to view it as just one big Country......

A quick look at any map shows that it is and only arbitrary lines on that map divide it into separate countries. Whereas, there's a pretty convincing dividing body of water between the British Isles and France/Belgium/Netherlands.

Oh for the days of allies, not bedmates. Get us out, before it is too late!

 

[Teech]

Yes we have NATO. A mighty mainly european force but does have the Americans thinking they not only supply the major numbers but look upon it as their toy to deploy.
As for a theory of making one big European Force I think this highly unlikely. You only need to look at Afghan. The Brits get the dangerous areas because we seem to accept it. Each individual Nation has it's own conditions for allowing their forces to be used by NATO and the EU peacekeeping forces, e.g. the Germans will not allow their soldiers to be engaged in operations in the dark thus pretty much removing them from any seriously dangerous areas. Too many countries would have too much to give up (especially as it would mean that those daft Brits would benefit by getting a more equal share of the danger!!)
The reality is that as much as many of the major nations will say we must unite and have a single European state, it will always be on their terms. I for one feel proud to be British and reserve the right to live as British citizens decide and not by the laws, social structure, and culture of other nations that also have that right to live as they see fit.

 

[sussex2]

.....Consider the idea that the weakening of our Armed Services is part of a 'UK/European Socialist' plan to add support to the continuing moves to create a 'European Armed Force' ???.

Why would we want to support that? The Soviets proved beyond doubt that joining states; against their will, in many cases; does not work

History shows how well our individual countries have enjoyed each others company over the centuries.....at best, we tolerate each other....at times of need, few are at the front of the line to assist in a meaningful way....you only have to look at the record of the last 20 years or so

Have a think, have a care and above all, have a say :thumright:

But the EU are not states joined against their will. It is a free union of states the joining of which was voted for by the people.
It has given the majority of Europe more than sixty years of peace. I know of no other period as long.
The Russians conquered states by military power, this is not a parallel situation.

 

[ahadoo]

.....Consider the idea that the weakening of our Armed Services is part of a 'UK/European Socialist' plan to add support to the continuing moves to create a 'European Armed Force' ???.

Why would we want to support that? The Soviets proved beyond doubt that joining states; against their will, in many cases; does not work

History shows how well our individual countries have enjoyed each others company over the centuries.....at best, we tolerate each other....at times of need, few are at the front of the line to assist in a meaningful way....you only have to look at the record of the last 20 years or so

Have a think, have a care and above all, have a say :thumright:

But the EU are not states joined against their will. It is a free union of states the joining of which was voted for by the people.
It has given the majority of Europe more than sixty years of peace. I know of no other period as long.
The Russians conquered states by military power, this is not a parallel situation.

When? The vote to join the European Union was under completely different circumstances, and in the current “Socio-Politic-Economic climate,†we are apparently untrustworthy to be consulted or have a say in the future of our nation.

The Russians may have used military might to form the USSR, where as the EU are using words to form the “United States of Europe.†Apart from the different weaponry there are similarities which can be drawn. In each case it is a small minority imposing their political will on their societies who are given no consultation at all. At least the other European nations elected their premier, the Spawn of Stalin will probably push all of this through before the Conservatives take power, if we are allowed to vote that is. . .

 

[Passed-over_Loggie]

Another worthwhile point to remember about the mythical vote on joining the EU was that it was a vote to stay in after we'd burned many of our bridges. The other important point to remember is that we voted to stay in the Common Market with no offer or promise of the EU superstate.

The folly we indulge in our foolish youth and a constant source of regret.

The Russians achieved the mighty but unstable USSR by force of arms and, for want of a better title, concentration camps. Our free European political classes are attempting a similar feat by stealth, deceit and constant erosion of the individual national will.

 

[sussex2]

.....Consider the idea that the weakening of our Armed Services is part of a 'UK/European Socialist' plan to add support to the continuing moves to create a 'European Armed Force' ???.

Why would we want to support that? The Soviets proved beyond doubt that joining states; against their will, in many cases; does not work

History shows how well our individual countries have enjoyed each others company over the centuries.....at best, we tolerate each other....at times of need, few are at the front of the line to assist in a meaningful way....you only have to look at the record of the last 20 years or so

Have a think, have a care and above all, have a say :thumright:

But the EU are not states joined against their will. It is a free union of states the joining of which was voted for by the people.
It has given the majority of Europe more than sixty years of peace. I know of no other period as long.
The Russians conquered states by military power, this is not a parallel situation.

When? The vote to join the European Union was under completely different circumstances, and in the current “Socio-Politic-Economic climate,†we are apparently untrustworthy to be consulted or have a say in the future of our nation.

The Russians may have used military might to form the USSR, where as the EU are using words to form the “United States of Europe.†Apart from the different weaponry there are similarities which can be drawn. In each case it is a small minority imposing their political will on their societies who are given no consultation at all. At least the other European nations elected their premier, the Spawn of Stalin will probably push all of this through before the Conservatives take power, if we are allowed to vote that is. . .

The EU constitution has been approved by the majority of nations by different means. Some by referendum and others through parliamentary bills, the majority by the latter.
I agree the waters have been muddied in the uk with regards to a referendum on the constitution.
Here in Spain should Mr Zapatero step down for some reason then his party the PSOE (socialist workers party) would appoint a new leader from its elected ranks, who would then go on to be Prime Minister; virtually the same system as the UK.
Mr Brown like all PM's is an MP who has been elected.
As for being allowed to vote then it will be more a case of how many people can be bothered to get off their backsides and walk to the polling booths :wink: The last elections in Spain recorded a percentage of almost 80 percent voting, though the conditions at the time may well have made a difference.
I hold my hand up to being a dyed in the wool EU federalist.

 

[ahadoo]

Here in Spain should Mr Zapatero step down for some reason then his party the PSOE (socialist workers party) would appoint a new leader from its elected ranks, who would then go on to be Prime Minister; virtually the same system as the UK.
Mr Brown like all PM's is an MP who has been elected.
As for being allowed to vote then it will be more a case of how many people can be bothered to get off their backsides and walk to the polling booths :wink: The last elections in Spain recorded a percentage of almost 80 percent voting, though the conditions at the time may well have made a difference.
I hold my hand up to being a dyed in the wool EU federalist.

Alas, sadly you are spot on regarding the lack of voters in the UK, hopefully that will change next time around.

Thing that gets me about being forced into the United States of Europe, is that, yes Gordon Brown was elected and so where the Labour party, but their manifesto promised a referendum on this subject, but they fail to deliver using semantics as an excuse. It is such a shift in power that I would liken it to whoever stepped up after Mr Zapatero, hypothetically speaking of course, giving an independent Basque state without consulting the people.

I am neither anti- nor pro- EU I would just like the truthful facts and the right to have my say t'is all.