Mass murder in the skies: was the plot feasible?

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#1
Some interesting information about the chemical bombs that were supposed to be created in the airplane toilets.

Let's whip up some TATP and find out

By Thomas C Greene in WashingtonPublished Thursday 17th August 2006 09:42 GMTSecurity White Papers - Download them free from Reg Research
Analysis: The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air;
And a loud voice came forth out of the temple of Heaven,
From the throne, saying, "It is done!"
--Revelation 16:17

Binary liquid explosives are a sexy staple of Hollywood thrillers. It would be tedious to enumerate the movie terrorists who've employed relatively harmless liquids that, when mixed, immediately rain destruction upon an innocent populace, like the seven angels of God's wrath pouring out their bowls full of pestilence and pain.

The funny thing about these movies is, we never learn just which two chemicals can be handled safely when separate, yet instantly blow us all to kingdom come when combined. Nevertheless, we maintain a great eagerness to believe in these substances, chiefly because action movies wouldn't be as much fun if we didn't.

Now we have news of the recent, supposedly real-world, terrorist plot to destroy commercial airplanes by smuggling onboard the benign precursors to a deadly explosive, and mixing up a batch of liquid death in the lavatories. So, The Register has got to ask, were these guys for real, or have they, and the counterterrorist officials supposedly protecting us, been watching too many action movies?

We're told that the suspects were planning to use TATP, or triacetone triperoxide, a high explosive that supposedly can be made from common household chemicals unlikely to be caught by airport screeners. A little hair dye, drain cleaner, and paint thinner - all easily concealed in drinks bottles - and the forces of evil have effectively smuggled a deadly bomb onboard your plane.

Or at least that's what we're hearing, and loudly, through the mainstream media and its legions of so-called "terrorism experts." But what do these experts know about chemistry? Less than they know about lobbying for Homeland Security pork, which is what most of them do for a living. But they've seen the same movies that you and I have seen, and so the myth of binary liquid explosives dies hard.

Better killing through chemistry
Making a quantity of TATP sufficient to bring down an airplane is not quite as simple as ducking into the toilet and mixing two harmless liquids together.

First, you've got to get adequately concentrated hydrogen peroxide. This is hard to come by, so a large quantity of the three per cent solution sold in pharmacies might have to be concentrated by boiling off the water. Only this is risky, and can lead to mission failure by means of burning down your makeshift lab before a single infidel has been harmed.

But let's assume that you can obtain it in the required concentration, or cook it from a dilute solution without ruining your operation. Fine. The remaining ingredients, acetone and sulfuric acid, are far easier to obtain, and we can assume that you've got them on hand.

Now for the fun part. Take your hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and sulfuric acid, measure them very carefully, and put them into drinks bottles for convenient smuggling onto a plane. It's all right to mix the peroxide and acetone in one container, so long as it remains cool. Don't forget to bring several frozen gel-packs (preferably in a Styrofoam chiller deceptively marked "perishable foods"), a thermometer, a large beaker, a stirring rod, and a medicine dropper. You're going to need them.

It's best to fly first class and order Champagne. The bucket full of ice water, which the airline ought to supply, might possibly be adequate - especially if you have those cold gel-packs handy to supplement the ice, and the Styrofoam chiller handy for insulation - to get you through the cookery without starting a fire in the lavvie.

Easy does it
Once the plane is over the ocean, very discreetly bring all of your gear into the toilet. You might need to make several trips to avoid drawing attention. Once your kit is in place, put a beaker containing the peroxide / acetone mixture into the ice water bath (Champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else.

After a few hours - assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities - you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two.

The genius of this scheme is that TATP is relatively easy to detonate. But you must make enough of it to crash the plane, and you must make it with care to assure potency. One needs quality stuff to commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale," as Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Stephenson put it. While it's true that a slapdash concoction will explode, it's unlikely to do more than blow out a few windows. At best, an infidel or two might be killed by the blast, and one or two others by flying debris as the cabin suddenly depressurizes, but that's about all you're likely to manage under the most favorable conditions possible.

We believe this because a peer-reviewed 2004 study in the Journal of the American Chemical Society (JACS) entitled "Decomposition of Triacetone Triperoxide is an Entropic Explosion" tells us that the explosive force of TATP comes from the sudden decomposition of a solid into gasses. There's no rapid oxidizing of fuel, as there is with many other explosives: rather, the substance changes state suddenly through an entropic process, and quickly releases a respectable amount of energy when it does. (Thus the lack of ingredients typically associated with explosives makes TATP, a white crystalline powder resembling sugar, difficult to detect with conventional bomb sniffing gear.)

Mrs. Satan
By now you'll be asking why these jihadist wannabes didn't conspire simply to bring TATP onto planes, colored with a bit of vegetable dye, and disguised as, say, a powdered fruit-flavored drink. The reason is that they would be afraid of failing: TATP is notoriously sensitive and unstable. Mainstream journalists like to tell us that terrorists like to call it "the mother of Satan." (Whether this reputation is deserved, or is a consequence of homebrewing by unqualified hacks, remains open to debate.)

It's been claimed that the 7/7 bombers used it, but this has not been positively confirmed. Some sources claim that they used C-4, and others that they used RDX. Nevertheless, the belief that they used TATP has stuck with the media, although going about in a crowded city at rush hour with an unstable homebrew explosive in a backpack is not the brightest of all possible moves. It's surprising that none of the attackers enjoyed an unscheduled launch into Paradise.

So, assuming that the homebrew variety of TATP is highly sensitive and unstable - or at least that our inept jihadists would believe that - to avoid getting blown up in the taxi on the way to the airport, one might, if one were educated in terror tactics primarily by hollywood movies, prefer simply to dump the precursors into an airplane toilet bowl and let the mother of Satan work her magic. Indeed, the mixture will heat rapidly as TATP begins to form, and it will soon explode. But this won't happen with much force, because little TATP will have formed by the time the explosion occurs.

We asked University of Rhode Island Chemistry Professor Jimmie C. Oxley, who has actual, practical experience with TATP, if this is a reasonable assumption, and she tolds us that merely dumping the precursors together would create "a violent reaction," but not a detonation.

To release the energy needed to bring down a plane (far more difficult to do than many imagine, as Aloha Airlines Flight 243 neatly illustrates), it's necessary to synthesize a good amount of TATP with care.

Jack Bauer sense
So the fabled binary liquid explosive - that is, the sudden mixing of hydrogen peroxide and acetone with sulfuric acid to create a plane-killing explosion, is out of the question. Meanwhile, making TATP ahead of time carries a risk that the mission will fail due to premature detonation, although it is the only plausible approach.

Certainly, if we can imagine a group of jihadists smuggling the necessary chemicals and equipment on board, and cooking up TATP in the lavatory, then we've passed from the realm of action blockbusters to that of situation comedy.

It should be small comfort that the security establishments of the UK and the USA - and the "terrorism experts" who inform them and wheedle billions of dollars out of them for bomb puffers and face recognition gizmos and remote gait analyzers and similar hi-tech phrenology gear - have bought the Hollywood binary liquid explosive myth, and have even acted upon it.

We've given extraordinary credit to a collection of jihadist wannabes with an exceptionally poor grasp of the mechanics of attacking a plane, whose only hope of success would have been a pure accident. They would have had to succeed in spite of their own ignorance and incompetence, and in spite of being under police surveillance for a year.

But the Hollywood myth of binary liquid explosives now moves governments and drives public policy. We have reacted to a movie plot. Liquids are now banned in aircraft cabins (while crystalline white powders would be banned instead, if anyone in charge were serious about security). Nearly everything must now go into the hold, where adequate amounts of explosives can easily be detonated from the cabin with cell phones, which are generally not banned.

Action heroes
The al-Qaeda franchise will pour forth its bowl of pestilence and death. We know this because we've watched it countless times on TV and in the movies, just as our officials have done. Based on their behavior, it's reasonable to suspect that everything John Reid and Michael Chertoff know about counterterrorism, they learned watching the likes of Bruce Willis, Jean-Claude Van Damme, Vin Diesel, and The Rock (whose palpable homoerotic appeal it would be discourteous to emphasize).

It's a pity that our security rests in the hands of government officials who understand as little about terrorism as the Florida clowns who needed their informant to suggest attack scenarios, as the 21/7 London bombers who injured no one, as lunatic "shoe bomber" Richard Reid, as the Forest Gate nerve gas attackers who had no nerve gas, as the British nitwits who tried to acquire "red mercury," and as the recent binary liquid bomb attackers who had no binary liquid bombs.

For some real terror, picture twenty guys who understand op-sec, who are patient, realistic, clever, and willing to die, and who know what can be accomplished with a modest stash of dimethylmercury.

You won't hear about those fellows until it's too late. Our official protectors and deciders trumpet the fools they catch because they haven't got a handle on the people we should really be afraid of. They make policy based on foibles and follies, and Hollywood plots.

Meanwhile, the real thing draws ever closer. ®
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/
 
#2
Not being a chemistry whiz myself, I cant speak to the veracity of the article, but it's food for thought, isn't it?
I know NASA used a similar potion back during the Apollo program as fuel for the orbital manuevering engines on the capsule. These type of chemicals were called "hypergolics", and were stable apart, but when combined, caused a strong reaction, but not an explosion.

<tinfoil hat on>
Could this just have been a diversion, to draw our attention away from the real avenue of attack?
<tinfoil hat off>
 
#3
Sadly, it's an irrelevance whether it was feasable or not, it was considered by the perpetrators as feasable (allegedly!). Thats enough for me...
 
#4
In my opinion, the fact that they were even thinking/trying to cause death on this scale, never mind the chemistry, is enough to lock them up for life.
I also believe that the Offence of Treason, and it's punishment(capital) should be brought back for any British citizen conspiring against the State.
That would also take in to account those supposedly(?) "unemployed" IRA bomb makers and rogue special forces troops who are now suspected of training Al Quaida cells.
RoofRat
 

mophead

Lantern Swinger
#5
Whilst it is theoretically posdsible to produce a liquid explosive as described the risks in doing so outside of a controlled laboratory environment are immense;the perpetrator would end up seriously injuring only himself.The use of such explosives is only possible in the movies,from where our leaders seem to be getting most of their ideas on terrorists.
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
#6
I posted Sgtpeppers piece on another thread and got this in reply (the author speaks with hands on authority)

An interesting article. However the terrorist does not need to go as far as establishing a small chemistry lab in an aircrafts bog, in which to mix his or her chemicals. The fact is that there are a number of simple and readily available binaries that will do the work that the terrorists want. I wont publish them here, but anyone who is interested can drop me a private email.

I will not be making his email available :lol:
 
#7
These people are not worrying about a premature explosion or hurting themselves!!!!!! Why are you making this a factor?
They are there to kill you and themselves, for fcuk sake. :evil:
RoofRat
 

Old_Hand

Lantern Swinger
#8
RoofRat said:
These people are not worrying about a premature explosion or hurting themselves!!!!!! Why are you making this a factor?
They are there to kill you and themselves, for fcuk sake. :evil:
RoofRat
Absolutely right mate. All they have to do is get into a position to mix the ingredients and then 'Bang'. They know they are going to die anyway.
 

Chalky

Lantern Swinger
#10
imom1406 said:
Sadly, it's an irrelevance whether it was feasable or not, it was considered by the perpetrators as feasable (allegedly!). Thats enough for me...
Yes, but I've met people who thought it was pheasible to bring down the government by not washing and playing guitar very badly. It doesn't mean it's a palpable reality. :p
 
#12
Surely the pertinent part of this dialogue is that a security risk was identified and action was taken to address it, in time to prevent any atrocity by the misguided potential terrorists.

If people have been arrested in error, that's unfortunately one of the consequences of heightened security levels. I agree with the government very rarely, but I would prefer the short-term inconvenience caused by overreaction to the permanent inconvenience of mass casualties and deaths.

The contribution of the chemical possibilities is interesting, but not of great importance, because we already have the proof of the terrorist will to succeed in 9/11 and 7/7, not to mention the litany provided by the PIRA, ETA, Tamil Tigers and the myriad other organisations who feel they have the right to protest with other peoples' lives.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#13
BootneckYank said:
Not being a chemistry whiz myself, I cant speak to the veracity of the article, but it's food for thought, isn't it?
I know NASA used a similar potion back during the Apollo program as fuel for the orbital manuevering engines on the capsule. These type of chemicals were called "hypergolics", and were stable apart, but when combined, caused a strong reaction, but not an explosion.

<tinfoil hat on>
Could this just have been a diversion, to draw our attention away from the real avenue of attack?
<tinfoil hat off>
Or more likely: We are doing a bit rubbish in Afghanistan at the moment, and despite mooted pleas to reinforce the war effort out there and stop pretending the troops on the ground can do it on willpower and shit-kit alone, we'll cobble together some half-arsed story just to remind the ambivalent, complacent British Public who the ******* enemy is.

Sadly, it's an irrelevance whether it was feasable or not, it was considered by the perpetrators as feasable (allegedly!). Thats enough for me...
To do 'what' exactly? Let's take this as it stands. They're a bunch of chancers, who haven't the first inkling what the **** binaries are, let alone how to smuggle them on a fairly-highly secured passenger aircraft and then go to the trouble of building them and detonating them. Have you the proof they could actually carry out the action? I haven't seen any tangible proof yet. Where are these videos? The suicide notes? Will we see any of this actually come out, untampered with and providing concrete, irrefutible evidence for the prosecution? Or will the police **** it all up again?

In my opinion, the fact that they were even thinking/trying to cause death on this scale, never mind the chemistry, is enough to lock them up for life.
So, having thoughts of death is punishable under which statute, exactly? Even if the police can undeniably link what they claim to have found to the alleged perpetrators, how many of them will honestly never see the light of day again? It's not enough to lock them up for life. Even murderers are rarely locked up for life, these days.

I also believe that the Offence of Treason, and it's punishment(capital) should be brought back for any British citizen conspiring against the State.
That would also take in to account those supposedly(?) "unemployed" IRA bomb makers and rogue special forces troops who are now suspected of training Al Quaida cells
You got any proof of your last statement? If the PIRA or OIRA are training AQ cells, they certainly aren't any fuckng good. The PIRA managed to bring down the ******* hotel that Thatcher and her Cabinet were in. Whoever is trainig the AQ (as you allege) isn't a ******* patch on the PIRA.

These people are not worrying about a premature explosion or hurting themselves!!!!!! Why are you making this a factor?
They are there to kill you and themselves, for fcuk sake
No one is denying that. What is for discussion is the fact that the binaries alleged to have been earmarked for use have a complex construction process if they are to release enough energy to take down a plane.

If people have been arrested in error, that's unfortunately one of the consequences of heightened security levels. I agree with the government very rarely, but I would prefer the short-term inconvenience caused by overreaction to the permanent inconvenience of mass casualties and deaths.
What a pretty bad state for our state to be in. You join in some mythical 'War on Ter' (copyright 2003, GW Bush and A Blair) and immediatly your ******* country shits a brick and everyone eyes anyone with a suntan and a beard as a terrorist. You look like a terrorist (Jean Charles de Menenzies) then you're chased into a tube station and shot. Your police force shoots two beardy types even though they are proven not to be connected. And then everyone wonders why tragedies like 7/7 happen.

Some of you guys should write for the Daily Mail. Seriously.

Levers
 
#14
Levers_Aligned said:
BootneckYank said:
Not being a chemistry whiz myself, I cant speak to the veracity of the article, but it's food for thought, isn't it?
I know NASA used a similar potion back during the Apollo program as fuel for the orbital manuevering engines on the capsule. These type of chemicals were called "hypergolics", and were stable apart, but when combined, caused a strong reaction, but not an explosion.

<tinfoil hat on>
Could this just have been a diversion, to draw our attention away from the real avenue of attack?
<tinfoil hat off>
Or more likely: We are doing a bit rubbish in Afghanistan at the moment, and despite mooted pleas to reinforce the war effort out there and stop pretending the troops on the ground can do it on willpower and shit-kit alone, we'll cobble together some half-arsed story just to remind the ambivalent, complacent British Public who the ******* enemy is.

Sadly, it's an irrelevance whether it was feasable or not, it was considered by the perpetrators as feasable (allegedly!). Thats enough for me...
To do 'what' exactly? Let's take this as it stands. They're a bunch of chancers, who haven't the first inkling what the **** binaries are, let alone how to smuggle them on a fairly-highly secured passenger aircraft and then go to the trouble of building them and detonating them. Have you the proof they could actually carry out the action? I haven't seen any tangible proof yet. Where are these videos? The suicide notes? Will we see any of this actually come out, untampered with and providing concrete, irrefutible evidence for the prosecution? Or will the police **** it all up again?

In my opinion, the fact that they were even thinking/trying to cause death on this scale, never mind the chemistry, is enough to lock them up for life.
So, having thoughts of death is punishable under which statute, exactly? Even if the police can undeniably link what they claim to have found to the alleged perpetrators, how many of them will honestly never see the light of day again? It's not enough to lock them up for life. Even murderers are rarely locked up for life, these days.

I also believe that the Offence of Treason, and it's punishment(capital) should be brought back for any British citizen conspiring against the State.
That would also take in to account those supposedly(?) "unemployed" IRA bomb makers and rogue special forces troops who are now suspected of training Al Quaida cells
You got any proof of your last statement? If the PIRA or OIRA are training AQ cells, they certainly aren't any fuckng good. The PIRA managed to bring down the ******* hotel that Thatcher and her Cabinet were in. Whoever is trainig the AQ (as you allege) isn't a ******* patch on the PIRA.

These people are not worrying about a premature explosion or hurting themselves!!!!!! Why are you making this a factor?
They are there to kill you and themselves, for fcuk sake
No one is denying that. What is for discussion is the fact that the binaries alleged to have been earmarked for use have a complex construction process if they are to release enough energy to take down a plane.

If people have been arrested in error, that's unfortunately one of the consequences of heightened security levels. I agree with the government very rarely, but I would prefer the short-term inconvenience caused by overreaction to the permanent inconvenience of mass casualties and deaths.
What a pretty bad state for our state to be in. You join in some mythical 'War on Ter' (copyright 2003, GW Bush and A Blair) and immediatly your ******* country shits a brick and everyone eyes anyone with a suntan and a beard as a terrorist. You look like a terrorist (Jean Charles de Menenzies) then you're chased into a tube station and shot. Your police force shoots two beardy types even though they are proven not to be connected. And then everyone wonders why tragedies like 7/7 happen.

Some of you guys should write for the Daily Mail. Seriously.

Levers
So what do you suggest smart bloke?
When the whiff of a plot like this is uncovered do the police and 5 just ignore it or wait for the bombs to go off?
7/7 etc. happened purely because your average backward islamic type hates the west full stop bacuase they don't follow islam.
And Al qaeda bringing down the twin towers wasn't a patch on the IRA???
Sometimes you really do talk out of your arse.
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
#15
What a pretty bad state for our state to be in. You join in some mythical 'War on Ter' (copyright 2003, GW Bush and A Blair) and immediatly your ******* country shits a brick and everyone eyes anyone with a suntan and a beard as a terrorist. You look like a terrorist (Jean Charles de Menenzies) then you're chased into a tube station and shot. Your police force shoots two beardy types even though they are proven not to be connected. And then everyone wonders why tragedies like 7/7 happen.

Some of you guys should write for the Daily Mail. Seriously.

Levers[/quote]

When did they shoot two beardy types, I only know of one?
 
#16
janner said:
What a pretty bad state for our state to be in. You join in some mythical 'War on Ter' (copyright 2003, GW Bush and A Blair) and immediatly your ******* country shits a brick and everyone eyes anyone with a suntan and a beard as a terrorist. You look like a terrorist (Jean Charles de Menenzies) then you're chased into a tube station and shot. Your police force shoots two beardy types even though they are proven not to be connected. And then everyone wonders why tragedies like 7/7 happen.

Some of you guys should write for the Daily Mail. Seriously.

Levers
When did they shoot two beardy types, I only know of one?[/quote]


And he was subsequently charged with posession of kiddy porn ....nice innocent law abiding tax payers that they were!
 
#17
Well well, we have our own Liberal apologist. I stand by everything I said Levers.
As for proof that PIRA are training terrorist cells around the world read something other than the Guardian, or the "Human Rights Weekly ( :) ) and you will read articles where PIRA men have been arrested in Peru, the Basque country, wanted in Spain and are known to have trained men in Libya.

If some bastard is going to bomb me or my country, I can live with guilt by association.
Treason should still be a capital punishment! I wouldn't shed one tear.
RoofRat
 
#18
RoofRat said:
If some bastard is going to bomb me or my country, I can live with guilt by association.
Treason should still be a capital punishment! I wouldn't shed one tear.
RoofRat
Treason is still punishable by execution, as far as I was aware. The problem is to get the nanny state to charge anybody with treason in the first place, remembering that you can only be guilty of treason if you are a citizen of the country that brings the charge.
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
#19
The police and security services can cry wolf, kick down the wrong door, shoot the wrong bloke, shoot (by accident) the right bloke for the wrong reason (not a terrorist but alleged pornographer specialising in children). They can in the form of those who celebrate diversity utter arrant drivel and do so with predictable regularity.

Equally predictable are the internet warriors, smarter than everyone, never off the net (despite the huge brains they don’t have a job to get in the way) who naysay any technical aspect of a terror plot/action. Their lack of technical education is obvious, an anonymous ‘friend’ usually has a degree/doctorate in the appropriate subject and informs/supports the naysayer. Really?! The Telegraph ran a piece on them recently.

No food for thought in Sgt Pepper's attached article BY. Just tinfoil.

Get a taster here;

www.nineeleven.co.uk
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#20
Lingyai said:
So what do you suggest smart bloke?
When the whiff of a plot like this is uncovered do the police and 5 just ignore it or wait for the bombs to go off?
No, not-so-smart bloke. I suggest we stop ******* about making up excuses to invade foreign lands and hanging on the coat-tails of a greedy, inwardly facing, backward global thug. Really think Bush gives a **** whether we are targeted by alleged terrorists? Well, yeah, because it keeps dullards like you firmly fixed into your racist mould and willing and able to gob off and support a war of lies and folly. Before you start, by the way, I raise you 'Weapons of Mass Destruction'. Away you go.

7/7 etc. happened purely because your average backward islamic type hates the west full stop bacuase they don't follow islam.
Any rationale toward their hatred? Anything to do with meddling in their afffairs, trying to dominate their economies and wholesale ransacking of their mineral wealth for the past hundred years or so? Cue irrational rant full of salacious messdeck banter, laced with 'ragheads' and 'wogs' and any other jibe you can dig from your well of fear and loathing.

And Al qaeda bringing down the twin towers wasn't a patch on the IRA???
Sometimes you really do talk out of your arse.
Of course. I forgot. It was Paddy and his oppos who trained the ******* Saudis (read - 'Saudis, not Iraqis or Afghans) to fly jets into the WTC and Pentagon. It was the same self people who organised it all and trained them, in secret tented camps out in the Hindu Kush (just like in the movies, huh?)

Who talks out of their arse?

Well well, we have our own Liberal apologist. I stand by everything I said Levers.
I like the cut of your gib, Roofrat. However I refute your 'Liberal Apologist' line. If that is what I am, then you my friend are akin to Hitler. Because other people doubt the validity of alleged terrorist accusations until irrefutible proof is estabished and a tangible link to a terrorist organisation, doesn't mean that there is an excuse for terrorism. But examining the words printed here, the inferences and the illusion, one can only deduce that somehow, someway the whole plan has succeeded and you've all been done to a turn. The fear that pervades spells it all out, from Lingyais blanket loathing of anything other than home grown British, to everyones shooting from the hip attitude ... the coppers have arrested some 'Pakkis' three cheers we have won the war. Never mind the mechanics of the case, just shoot the ******* because:

a. They're Pakkis
b. We're not
c. Erm ... that's it.

Oh, and anyone else who gets caught in the crossfire (Brazilian electricians, for example) well, that's tough. Nobody get a suntan and run from a bloke pointing a gun at you, eh?

As for proof that PIRA are training terrorist cells around the world read something other than the Guardian, or the "Human Rights Weekly ( ) and you will read articles where PIRA men have been arrested in Peru, the Basque country, wanted in Spain and are known to have trained men in Libya.
And Al Quaeda? This is what was alleged, by the way. Are the PIRA training Al Quaeda? If so, where's the proof? Have we arrested and tried anyone for it, or are the papers always right?

If some bastard is going to bomb me or my country, I can live with guilt by association.
Treason should still be a capital punishment! I wouldn't shed one tear.
Indeed. And now let's see the irrefutible proof. If they do go away, let's be happy that they go down safe in the knowledge they are guilty and we have shown it to be, without the Bill making up half of it, forcing signed confessions and having to release half the suspects because they've fucked up the case. I'd like to have faith in the justice system I believe in. Having ten supposed IRA bombers released after it being found they were not the perpertrators is bad enough. Let's hope that they have the right people this time and we don't have a Forest Gate, part two.

Levers
 

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