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Mail: "Royal Navy's 260 Captains For Just 19 Warships"

tomcat24

Lantern Swinger
It is intended to prevent an incestuous relationship developing between the enablers and the operators so that capability is based on the requirements of warfare development, not vice-versa. (Interesting question - Does technology govern one's choice of capability or should one's requirement govern technology? Some years ago, I advised the then incoming Director of the Maritime Warfare Centre that we should exploit emerging technology but not be slaves to it... if it ain't broke, etc.)

Here's chapter and verse from the Levene Report into Defence Reform - An independent report into the structure and management of the Ministry of Defence dated June 2011:

Yeah I read the Levene report and disagreed with much of it. Basically, it just draws all the command with the name "Joint" altogether and says ok we give you a four-star to control all of you. But basically, its more budget controlling than producing a dedicated force. The US itself has cancelled their Joint Forces Command and they are much larger in many areas than the UK's military.
 

Guns

War Hero
Moderator
tomcat24, you seem to completely miss what JFC is about.

All Defence effects on operations (stand fast CASD) come under the command of JFC. The single service chiefs are there to generate force elements for the JFC to use in order to achieve the missions set by the government of the day.

Additionally the force enablers that cut across all three environments, along with cyber operations, are now under one command.

But what do I know.
 
I don't think its fixed. Look at the RN website, there's one full captain amongst in command of the Type 23 frigates. None of the Type 45 at present have a captain in charge--used to be for Daring and Dauntless no longer. SSNs an SSBNs COs are still commanders.

COs of LUST, BULW/ALBN, OCEA, PRTR, WSTR and DRGN are all Capt RN. The aim is to have about 6 Capts in Command at any one time.

The Submariner Capt in Command is now on a T23; having passed all his required Command Exams for Surface Command.

There is a move away from requiring OF5 as a requirement for further promotion - indeed there is a new 2* whose last Command was as a Cdr.
 

jrwlynch

Lantern Swinger
I don't think its fixed. Look at the RN website, there's one full captain amongst in command of the Type 23 frigates. None of the Type 45 at present have a captain in charge--used to be for Daring and Dauntless no longer. SSNs an SSBNs COs are still commanders.

Iain Lower, CO DRAGON, is a four-ringer; he's Captain AAW as well as driving a 45. (Took over the Captain AAW job from Will Warrender who had DAUNTLESS).
 

Guns

War Hero
Moderator
Commanding Officers of a T45, a T23 (LFAS fitted) and the LPD are Captains, as in the rank not position, and act as the Principal Warfare Officer for Above Water, Under Water and Information Warfare. They act as the current doing it for real senior bod to allow ACOS Warfare (or what ever we are calling them now) some feedback from the front line.
 
BBC (link)

Peter Salmon, Director, BBC North (£375k)
Helen Boarden, Director, Radio (£340k)
Tim Davie, CEO, BBC Worldwide & Director, Global (£335k)
Zarin Patel, Former Chief Financial Officer (£322k)
Lucy Adams, Director HR (£320k)
Bal Samra, Commercial Director (£315k)
Dominic Coles, Director of Operations (£300k)
James Purnell, Director, Strategy & Digital (£295k)
Ralph Rivera, Director, Future Media (£295k)
John Linwood, Chief Technology Officer (£280k)
Roger Mosey, Editorial Director (£270k)
Danny Cohen, Director, Television (£262k)
Daniel Danker, Former General Manager, Products & On Demand (£246k)
John Yorke, Controller of Drama Production and New Talent (£240k)
Ben Stephenson, Controller, Drama Commissioning (£240k)
Peter Horrocks, Director, Global News (£233k)
Janice Hadlow, Controller, BBC Two and Interim Controller, BBC Four (£227k)
Emma Swain, Head of Knowledge Commissioning (£220k)
Roger Wright, Controller, Radio 3 and Director, BBC Proms (£220k)
Beverley Tew, Group Finance Director (£214k)
Bob Shennan, Controller, Radio 2, 6 Music and Asian Network (£213k)
Mark Freeland, Head of Comedy (£212k)
Zai Bennett, Controller, BBC Three (£212k)
Anne Morrison, Training Academy Director (£210k)
Philip Almond, Director, Marketing (£210k)
Nick Betts, Controller of Business, Drama, Films and Acquisitions, Television (£210k)
Nicolas Brown, Director, Drama Productions, Vision (£210k)
Lisa Opie, Controller of Business, Knowledge and Daytime (£208k)
Shane Allen, Controller, Comedy Commissioning, Television (£207k)
Andy Griffee, Project Director, W1 (£207k)
Kate Harwood, Head of Drama, England (£205k)
Sarah Jones, Group General Counsel, Operations (£205k)
Graham Ellis, Controller Production and Deputy Director, Radio (£202k)
Mark Linsey, Controller, Entertainment Commissioning (£202k)

Perhaps the First Sea Lord is in the wrong game? He could be making much more money as the BBC's Head of Comedy.

You know what's scary, for me, about the names on that BBC list?

I don't recognise a single one of them...

That's because BBC senior executives (well over 34 of whom are paid more than any RN admiral) seldom appear on TV or Radio, just like senior RN officers rarely appear at sea. They're all too busy managing their organisations.
 

tomcat24

Lantern Swinger
You can be sure that the number of four ring Captains will increase with the launch of HMS Queen Elizabeth. CO will definitely be a Captain. First Lieutenant/XO may be a Captain or may be a Commander, depending if they want cost savings. Air Wing Commander will definitely be a Captain/Group Captain--the squadrons will be headed by Commanders/Wing Commanders.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
Tomcat

No offence, but sometimes shutting up and listening is a really good strategy. I can tell you for a fact that on this page of the thread alone you've had expert input from two serving officers and one very well qualified civilian analyst.
To date everything you've posted has been utter utter bollocks. Please just stop!
 
COs of LUST, BULW/ALBN, OCEA, PRTR, WSTR and DRGN are all Capt RN. The aim is to have about 6 Capts in Command at any one time.

The Submariner Capt in Command is now on a T23; having passed all his required Command Exams for Surface Command.

There is a move away from requiring OF5 as a requirement for further promotion - indeed there is a new 2* whose last Command was as a Cdr.

Whilst I don't at all subscribe to the garbage in the DM article, I think that the scenario you outline raises some questions. Why are we creating these OF 5 Commands? In living memory we have gone from having Squadrons of FF/DD, commanded by a single OF 5 seagoing Officer, through to a time when all FF/DD (excluding the 22s and first 1/2 45s) were OF4 Commands, and now on to this Capt AAW/ASW system?

Is there not a risk that we are 'opportunity hoarding' by taking what were OF4 Commands and making them OF 5 Commands? The point I seek to make is that with the number of hulls contracting at a faster rate than the number of suitably qualified Seaman Officers, then we are removing the prospect of Command from a lot of these people. I accept the fact that not all Seaman Officers want to drive, nor do a significant proportion meet the quality line; however, are we not compromising our ability to pull through our best? Was this not the case a few years ago when we were taking 1* Officers and making them temporary OF5s in order to drive Capital Ships?

This extends further down into the MM/PP Commands- it was not so long ago that we gave MM/PP Commands (stand fast URNU boats) to CQ1 qualified mid Seniority Lieutenants. Why have we now arrived at a situation whereby to even get a look in at these Appointments, Officers need to be CQ2 and/or SM (CQ). Why have we raised the bar all of a sudden? Has the job become significantly more complex (quite possibly) or did the RN spend most of the last century taking unnecessary risk by letting non PWO Lts drive NI and fish boats?

This isn't intended as criticism- merely a desire to understand how things have changed!
 
TL:DR version - Capt RN in Command create not only the next 1SL, but experienced Officers for jobs like CJO, ACDS (Mil Strat) or ACOS J5 @ PJHQ. They also act as mentors to the less experienced COs in the Fleet.

I suppose it depends on what you think those Capt RN in Command are actually doing. If it's solely about being a Commanding Officer, then yes, they should all be Cdr RN Commands. However.....

I've served in 4 Ships that had Captains in Command, and in discussion with them, I could offer the following viewpoint:

If you go onto the job specifications for senior (1* and above) Joint jobs, especially the crunchy ones (a few J2, J3, some J4 and J5), you will see 'Formation Command' as an essential prerequisite for being screened for that job, let alone being competitive for it. Seeing as the Army run 'Joint', for them it means either a Type A Brigade Command*, or in the case of the J2 and J4 jobs, a damn good Type B Command. The RN has precisely 3 "Type A Brigade" jobs (COMUKTG, UKMCC Bahrain and 3 Cdo Bde), which is an impossibly small number to create competitive numbers of people to fight the Dark Blue battle in the Joint World. Therefore we also nominate the Capt RN Commands as a pseudo-Formation Command. 6 is the number NavSec has come up with to create enough choice and competition for 1SL to select from for Candidates for the Joint jobs.

As for Capt Warfare (i.e. those in Command of a T23/T45) not acting as Squadron Commanders, I doubt you'll be surprised to know how much mentoring and advice is provided by these Officers to the "Boy Commanders" having a grand old time in their First Commands. It is also for this reason that NavSec tries to put a Capt RN going to Command on every CO Desig Course - they can provide some wise old 'been there, done this' advice over coffee or lunch, which some might say is the entire point of CODC!

All 6 of the Captains (to extrapolate from 4 I've worked for/know socially) have quite a large workload from Fleet Commander, NCHQ and PJHQ that has very little to do with their day job of driving their steamer around the oggin. Some of this is preparing them for the grown up policy world they are about to go to, some of it is about taking their experience and currency at the front line and making sure a "common sense" filter is applied from sea. This also allows them to hand quite a lot of experience to their XOs/HoDs/PWOs beyond what would be the norm.

The MCMV/FPV Command requirements are quite a bit more challenging these days, especially for the MCMs out in KIPION. They are having the same interactions, with much the same force protection firepower, that a T23 has and are held to exactly the same standard. Having a non-Warfare trained (or at least qualified) Officer in Command would be fraught with dangers. I work with a former NI Hunt CO, and I would've given my eye teeth to have his Command at his age, but realistically, he was on quite a short leash with very defined tasking - same same for the old Fish Boats. Incidentally, the CQ2 process (which is required for MM/PP Command or FF/DD XO, regardless of Perisher pass or otherwise) is in a bit of a pickle. Suffice to say that as soon as you pass it you are in the mix for selection - not good if you want to do something other than spend decades at sea.

I think that we are not far off a 'Wet'/'Dry' list, but with some realistic prospects (2*?) for those who choose, or are selected, to remain Dry. The buzzes I've heard are tying it all into the NEM introduction, which might come a little late for some.



*Type A Brigades are the brigades that formed the nucleus of Task Force HERRICK etc. 3 Cdo Bde is a Type A Brigade. Type B are Army Brigades who have either a specialised role (the new ISTAR Brigade or a Signal Brigade) or are 'second line', such as the Regional Brigades. There is around 9 Type A Brigades and 9 Type B Brigades available for Command. Interestingly, most ambitious Army Officers see Unit Command as a stepping stone to Brigade Command, which is where the real action lies. This contrasts with FF/DD Command being seen as a the sine qua non of a Warfare Officers life. It also means that the way we are going to compose, training and operate the CSG associated with the QE Class is the real defining issue of Carrier Strike, and is also it's biggest elephant in the room. If you want to see a real statement of intent about the RN getting back into the Carrier business, forget the cat'n'traps sideshow, and look at how many T45, T23s and the Battlestaff are going to be employed. Treating QE Class as an overgrown T45 with a really big flightdeck is an indication we are all mouth and no trousers; creating a CSG similar to a USN or French CSG (FF and DD permanently assigned, Battlestaff onboard every time they sail) indicates we mean business.
 

tomcat24

Lantern Swinger
TL:DR version - Capt RN in Command create not only the next 1SL, but experienced Officers for jobs like CJO, ACDS (Mil Strat) or ACOS J5 @ PJHQ. They also act as mentors to the less experienced COs in the Fleet.

I suppose it depends on what you think those Capt RN in Command are actually doing. If it's solely about being a Commanding Officer, then yes, they should all be Cdr RN Commands. However.....

I've served in 4 Ships that had Captains in Command, and in discussion with them, I could offer the following viewpoint:

If you go onto the job specifications for senior (1* and above) Joint jobs, especially the crunchy ones (a few J2, J3, some J4 and J5), you will see 'Formation Command' as an essential prerequisite for being screened for that job, let alone being competitive for it. Seeing as the Army run 'Joint', for them it means either a Type A Brigade Command*, or in the case of the J2 and J4 jobs, a damn good Type B Command. The RN has precisely 3 "Type A Brigade" jobs (COMUKTG, UKMCC Bahrain and 3 Cdo Bde), which is an impossibly small number to create competitive numbers of people to fight the Dark Blue battle in the Joint World. Therefore we also nominate the Capt RN Commands as a pseudo-Formation Command. 6 is the number NavSec has come up with to create enough choice and competition for 1SL to select from for Candidates for the Joint jobs.

As for Capt Warfare (i.e. those in Command of a T23/T45) not acting as Squadron Commanders, I doubt you'll be surprised to know how much mentoring and advice is provided by these Officers to the "Boy Commanders" having a grand old time in their First Commands. It is also for this reason that NavSec tries to put a Capt RN going to Command on every CO Desig Course - they can provide some wise old 'been there, done this' advice over coffee or lunch, which some might say is the entire point of CODC!

All 6 of the Captains (to extrapolate from 4 I've worked for/know socially) have quite a large workload from Fleet Commander, NCHQ and PJHQ that has very little to do with their day job of driving their steamer around the oggin. Some of this is preparing them for the grown up policy world they are about to go to, some of it is about taking their experience and currency at the front line and making sure a "common sense" filter is applied from sea. This also allows them to hand quite a lot of experience to their XOs/HoDs/PWOs beyond what would be the norm.

The MCMV/FPV Command requirements are quite a bit more challenging these days, especially for the MCMs out in KIPION. They are having the same interactions, with much the same force protection firepower, that a T23 has and are held to exactly the same standard. Having a non-Warfare trained (or at least qualified) Officer in Command would be fraught with dangers. I work with a former NI Hunt CO, and I would've given my eye teeth to have his Command at his age, but realistically, he was on quite a short leash with very defined tasking - same same for the old Fish Boats. Incidentally, the CQ2 process (which is required for MM/PP Command or FF/DD XO, regardless of Perisher pass or otherwise) is in a bit of a pickle. Suffice to say that as soon as you pass it you are in the mix for selection - not good if you want to do something other than spend decades at sea.

I think that we are not far off a 'Wet'/'Dry' list, but with some realistic prospects (2*?) for those who choose, or are selected, to remain Dry. The buzzes I've heard are tying it all into the NEM introduction, which might come a little late for some.



*Type A Brigades are the brigades that formed the nucleus of Task Force HERRICK etc. 3 Cdo Bde is a Type A Brigade. Type B are Army Brigades who have either a specialised role (the new ISTAR Brigade or a Signal Brigade) or are 'second line', such as the Regional Brigades. There is around 9 Type A Brigades and 9 Type B Brigades available for Command. Interestingly, most ambitious Army Officers see Unit Command as a stepping stone to Brigade Command, which is where the real action lies. This contrasts with FF/DD Command being seen as a the sine qua non of a Warfare Officers life. It also means that the way we are going to compose, training and operate the CSG associated with the QE Class is the real defining issue of Carrier Strike, and is also it's biggest elephant in the room. If you want to see a real statement of intent about the RN getting back into the Carrier business, forget the cat'n'traps sideshow, and look at how many T45, T23s and the Battlestaff are going to be employed. Treating QE Class as an overgrown T45 with a really big flightdeck is an indication we are all mouth and no trousers; creating a CSG similar to a USN or French CSG (FF and DD permanently assigned, Battlestaff onboard every time they sail) indicates we mean business.

Thanks for the detailed understand. RN Captains are also regularly posted to Assistant Defence Attache/Defence Attache post in countries around the world as well
 

tomcat24

Lantern Swinger
Tomcat

No offence, but sometimes shutting up and listening is a really good strategy. I can tell you for a fact that on this page of the thread alone you've had expert input from two serving officers and one very well qualified civilian analyst.
To date everything you've posted has been utter utter bollocks. Please just stop!

I can tell you the same thing. Dunk you head first. Thank you.
 
A

angrydoc

Guest
Why can't the RN bite the bullet and release a statement that not every Capt RN actually commands a Ship and those media outlets that seem to think they should are just embarrassing themselves by being very out of touch with modern military life?

It's time we stopped releasing politically correct mishmash and started to say it like it is.

More Capt RN that warships. More MPs than cabinet positions. More managers in the NHS than hospitals.

The entire statement by the Mail is ridiculous. Between this and the Milliband thing a few weeks ago it really is showing itself up as a haven of sloppy uneducated journalists, and I mean journalist in the widest possible sense.


Posted from the Navy Net mobile app (iOS)
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
"I can tell you the same thing. Dunk you head first. Thank you."

Tomcat - you are a new arrival (am guessing you are a sockpuppet of Jeneral28) and you clearly have yet to learn how to play here. You've so far managed to spout a large pile of utter horse manure, and been offensive to other posters into the bargain. Please do us all a favour and post less and read more, for it is clear you really don't have the faintest clue about what you are talking about.
 
Alfred,

Many thanks for a comprehensive reply. I can see the logic of the system, but still have some reservations regarding both its purpose and suitability. Without going into huge length, I really don't see how re-labelling an FF/DD Command and giving out some additional (albeit significant) duties in any way approximates to Formation Command. I've served within the FF/DD Fleet (if it can still be called that!) as well as within both 3 Cdo Bde and 16AA; by my experience the difference is enormous. Not only is the Brigade Commander already a substantive 1* versus an OF5 but the scale of operations really is on a different level. I'd go as far as to say that even Capital Ship Command most closely approximates to a Combined Arms Battlegroup Command (600-1000 pax) rather than a full Brigade Command (circa 4k)- both in terms of numbers and in terms of scope of activity.

Of course, we are now entering the post Herrick era and so the Army will probably be forced to adjust its sights in terms of viewing Formation Command as a pre-requisite for the jobs at the top of the tree. Moreover, I'd be interested in seeing how the light blue element seem to do so well in getting jobs at the higher levels of Defence, especially given that they don't really have much in the way of Command experience which might approximate Formation Command- the only ones I can really think of are EAW Commands and the soon to be defunct JAG.

Lastly, I think that your observations regarding sea and dry lists are spot on the money. Given the rate at which we have shrunk (and continue to shrink) I don't think that FF/DD Command is a realistic prospect for the vast majority of X Officers today. How the Navy reacts to this will be key- if they continue to insist that the only way to a full 'x' career is OOW-PWO-CQ2 then they will probably find a lot of people leaving earlier than they might have done on the basis that a failure to achieve Command is a virtual bar to any meaningful forward progress. If the Navy is able to take the view point that not seeking or even not achieving Command is not terminal, then people might just be inclined to stay with the prospect of some progress. Whatever happens, it is clear that we live in interesting times; the NEM will definitely be worth a read when it appears!
 

Seaweed

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Wet and Dry was introduced in the 60s at Commander promotion level, and ultimately I suppose was discontinued, after a little watering down whereby the odd sea job went to a Dry bod in the hope of egging the others on.
 
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