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Mail: "Royal Navy's 260 Captains For Just 19 Warships"

From your source, how did you separate out the RM, RFA and QARNNS from the RN. I can only see references to the 'Naval Service' through-out.
 
And just for shits and giggles:

There are almost as many WOs in the RN as there are Cdr RN, Capt RN, Cdre RN, R Adm, V Adm and Adm combined (1370 and 1421 respectively).
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
And just for shits and giggles:

There are almost as many WOs in the RN as there are Cdr RN, Capt RN, Cdre RN, R Adm, V Adm and Adm combined (1370 and 1421 respectively).
There are indeed and different branches/rates/ranks have different sea/shore ratios. The ratio of Officers/Ratings in the RN presumably reflects the "technical" shoreside aspect of the job, taken as a whole. For RAF, the "teeth" are pretty much exclusively the aircraft, piloted by commissioned aircrew.

I'd guess the average ships company has about 10% Officers, on average.

Reference source for RN Personnel (I went off the Jan 13 one, but there's a more recent one here):

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/personnel/military/navy-quarterly-pocket-brief/2013-07-01/1_july_2013.pdf
 

Guns

War Hero
Moderator
The problem with the stats is the Pilots, Observers, Medical, Dental and Chaplains are all officer only branches which affects the figures and ratios.

The issue the RN has is that the traditional lots of AB's and then a narrowing pyramid to few at the top doesn't work as we become more technical and require greater skills, knowledge etc that need either SRs and Officers because of pay issues or a rank structure that is not in balance.
 
Just drifting left of centreline for a moment; if we look at the usual drip of "more Admirals than ships"; Senior Naval Staff | Royal Navy

Of those Appointments listed, which ones would we sensibly wish to see held by anyone at less than Flag Rank (or General Rank for the Booties) or "bandboxed" yet further with the risk of lost concentration? The same argument probably follows through to Captains and Colonels. The Navy may be getting smaller but I don't see the jobs demanded of it getting fewer or smaller. You could argue that trying to do the same with less demands more attention by the upper food chain.
 

tomcat24

Lantern Swinger
Just drifting left of centreline for a moment; if we look at the usual drip of "more Admirals than ships"; Senior Naval Staff | Royal Navy

Of those Appointments listed, which ones would we sensibly wish to see held by anyone at less than Flag Rank (or General Rank for the Booties) or "bandboxed" yet further with the risk of lost concentration? The same argument probably follows through to Captains and Colonels. The Navy may be getting smaller but I don't see the jobs demanded of it getting fewer or smaller. You could argue that trying to do the same with less demands more attention by the upper food chain.

I don't think its too much out of proportion. The British Army has more Brigadier upwards officers than the RN has for its senior appointments and many of those roles overlap each other. Plus some of those flag officers in the RN list are under NATO/international commands not exactly RN.
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
Just drifting left of centreline for a moment; if we look at the usual drip of "more Admirals than ships"; Senior Naval Staff | Royal Navy

Of those Appointments listed, which ones would we sensibly wish to see held by anyone at less than Flag Rank (or General Rank for the Booties) or "bandboxed" yet further with the risk of lost concentration? The same argument probably follows through to Captains and Colonels. The Navy may be getting smaller but I don't see the jobs demanded of it getting fewer or smaller. You could argue that trying to do the same with less demands more attention by the upper food chain.
Yep, I go along with that.

The problem as we all know, and successive governments completely miss, is that politicians seem to think they still have a blue-water, ocean going, globally capable Navy which can be multi-tasked. Clearly it can't.

The Navy, when I joined (1981), had 70,000 personnel to man 3 aircraft carriers, 69 Frigates & Destroyers, 2 assault ships, 4 SSBNs, 47 Mine Warfare vessels, 14 SSNs, 16 diesel boats & a couple of dozen survey vessels & patrol boats.

Today: 31,000 personnel to man 3 assault ships, 19 Frigates & Destroyers, 4 SSBNs, 15 Mine Warfare vessels, 7 SSNs & a couple of dozen survey vessels & patrol boats.

Manpower has reduced by more than half & hulls by two thirds in 32 years.

With reduced manning requirements on modern ships at sea and increased unit combat capability, I reckon at any one time, taken as a snapshot -70% of current Naval personnel are shore based.
 
Rank - These days it's all relative.

These days, service ranks are more an indication of the relative pay and position of their holders than their absolute authority. As platforms and weapons systems have become more technical and leaner-manned, the need for deck hands or cannon-fodder has reduced and the services have become increasingly top-heavy. This escalation has resulted in rank inflation whereby a holder's insignia no longer reflects his or her absolute power or responsibility.

Essentially, rank now recognises the relative scales of pay, privileges and status needed to retain someone's services. For example, the RN's 'all of one company' ethos puts its doctors and dentists in uniform and gives them stripes appropriate to their relative professional status and seniority. That's why, for example, the media's much-vaunted total of admirals in the Royal Navy includes Surgeon Vice Admiral Philip Raffaelli (Surgeon-General of the Armed Forces & Medical Director-General (Naval)) and Surgeon Rear Admiral C J G McArthur (Commander Joint Medical Command). Exceptionally, chaplains in the RN are not given stripes but there are understandable reasons for this and they are compensated in other ways. The full list of active Admirals and RM Generals serving in the Naval Service is available here.

We can compare the Armed Forces with another public organisation to see the irrelevance of senior military rank to absolute pay, power and status:

AIM OF ORGANISATION


UK ARMED FORCES: To defend the United Kingdom, and Overseas Territories, its people and interests and to act as a force for good by strengthening international peace and security.

BBC: To educate, inform and entertain.

NUMBER OF FULL TIME EMPLOYEES (2013 FIGURES)

UK ARMED FORCES: c.170,000 uniformed personnel (excluding reserves and civil servants)

BBC: c.23,000 staff

SIZE OF ANNUAL BUDGET

UK ARMED FORCES: c.£42bn

BBC: c.£5bn

SALARY OF HEAD OF ORGANISATION

UK ARMED FORCES: Gen Sir Nick Houghton, Chief of Defence Staff - £240k (link)

BBC: Tony Hall, Director-General - £450k (down from £671k for Mark Thompson) (link)

OTHER STAFF WITH SALARIES OVER £200K

UK ARMED FORCES (link)

None. Maximum salary for a normal 4* RN Admiral/RM General in the Naval Service (1), General in the Army (4) or Air Chief Marshal in the RAF (2) is currently £187k.

BBC (link)

Peter Salmon, Director, BBC North (£375k)
Helen Boarden, Director, Radio (£340k)
Tim Davie, CEO, BBC Worldwide & Director, Global (£335k)
Zarin Patel, Former Chief Financial Officer (£322k)
Lucy Adams, Director HR (£320k)
Bal Samra, Commercial Director (£315k)
Dominic Coles, Director of Operations (£300k)
James Purnell, Director, Strategy & Digital (£295k)
Ralph Rivera, Director, Future Media (£295k)
John Linwood, Chief Technology Officer (£280k)
Roger Mosey, Editorial Director (£270k)
Danny Cohen, Director, Television (£262k)
Daniel Danker, Former General Manager, Products & On Demand (£246k)
John Yorke, Controller of Drama Production and New Talent (£240k)
Ben Stephenson, Controller, Drama Commissioning (£240k)
Peter Horrocks, Director, Global News (£233k)
Janice Hadlow, Controller, BBC Two and Interim Controller, BBC Four (£227k)
Emma Swain, Head of Knowledge Commissioning (£220k)
Roger Wright, Controller, Radio 3 and Director, BBC Proms (£220k)
Beverley Tew, Group Finance Director (£214k)
Bob Shennan, Controller, Radio 2, 6 Music and Asian Network (£213k)
Mark Freeland, Head of Comedy (£212k)
Zai Bennett, Controller, BBC Three (£212k)
Anne Morrison, Training Academy Director (£210k)
Philip Almond, Director, Marketing (£210k)
Nick Betts, Controller of Business, Drama, Films and Acquisitions, Television (£210k)
Nicolas Brown, Director, Drama Productions, Vision (£210k)
Lisa Opie, Controller of Business, Knowledge and Daytime (£208k)
Shane Allen, Controller, Comedy Commissioning, Television (£207k)
Andy Griffee, Project Director, W1 (£207k)
Kate Harwood, Head of Drama, England (£205k)
Sarah Jones, Group General Counsel, Operations (£205k)
Graham Ellis, Controller Production and Deputy Director, Radio (£202k)
Mark Linsey, Controller, Entertainment Commissioning (£202k)

Perhaps the First Sea Lord is in the wrong game? He could be making much more money as the BBC's Head of Comedy.
 
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tomcat24

Lantern Swinger
Actually, why does the UK need a Joint Forces Command? I dont really see the need for a Joint Forces Command--PJHQ is good enough. You can cut waste by reducing the number of senior officers in JFC.
 
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Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
BBC (link)

Peter Salmon, Director, BBC North (£375k)
Helen Boarden, Director, Radio (£340k)
Tim Davie, CEO, BBC Worldwide & Director, Global (£335k)
Zarin Patel, Former Chief Financial Officer (£322k)
Lucy Adams, Director HR (£320k)
Bal Samra, Commercial Director (£315k)
Dominic Coles, Director of Operations (£300k)
James Purnell, Director, Strategy & Digital (£295k)
Ralph Rivera, Director, Future Media (£295k)
John Linwood, Chief Technology Officer (£280k)
Roger Mosey, Editorial Director (270k)
Danny Cohen, Director, Television (£262k)
Daniel Danker, Former General Manager, Products & On Demand (£246k)
John Yorke, Controller of Drama Production and New Talent (£240k)
Ben Stephenson, Controller, Drama Commissioning (£240k)
Peter Horrocks, Director, Global News (£233k)
Janice Hadlow, Controller, BBC Two and Interim Controller, BBC Four (£227k)
Emma Swain, Head of Knowledge Commissioning (£220k)
Roger Wright, Controller, Radio 3 and Director, BBC Proms (£220k)
Beverley Tew, Group Finance Director (£214k)
Bob Shennan, Controller, Radio 2, 6 Music and Asian Network (£213k)
Mark Freeland, Head of Comedy (£212k)
Zai Bennett, Controller, BBC Three (£212k)
Anne Morrison, Training Academy Director (£210k)
Philip Almond, Director, Marketing (£210k)
Nick Betts, Controller of Business, Drama, Films and Acquisitions, Television (£210k)
Nicolas Brown, Director, Drama Productions, Vision (£210k)
Lisa Opie, Controller of Business, Knowledge and Daytime (£208)
Shane Allen, Controller, Comedy Commissioning, Television (£207k)
Andy Griffee, Project Director, W1 (£207k)
Kate Harwood, Head of Drama, England (£205k)
Sarah Jones, Group General Counsel, Operations (£205k)
Graham Ellis, Controller Production and Deputy Director, Radio (£202k)
Mark Linsey, Controller, Entertainment Commissioning (£202k)

Perhaps the First Sea Lord is in the wrong game? He could be making far more money as the BBC Head of Comedy.

You know what's scary, for me, about the names on that BBC list?

I don't recognise a single one of them.

Numerically, a closer comparison could be drawn between the BBC & the RN, which would bring home your point in even starker contrast.

As Admiral Zambellas has an excellent sense of humour, I've no doubt he could handle both jobs simultaneously.
 

Seaweed

War Hero
Book Reviewer
(don't answer if it's classified) how many ships are there in commission which actually have a 4-ring CO as opposed to a lower rank? I fancy the number of sea commands for Captains must now be vanishingly small.

So for most Cdrs all that yawns before most of them is a succession of desks ashore, and it will not escape their notice that their contemporaries of similar ability are coining it in civilian life.

So it's not just about numbers, it's about retaining the real talent we need to keep the RN on the top line.

PS I don't know any of the current top table, they are all mere boys to me.
 

FAAFLYNAVY

Lantern Swinger
These days, service ranks are more an indication of the relative pay and position of their holders than their absolute authority. As platforms and weapons systems have become more technical and leaner-manned, the need for deck hands or cannon-fodder has reduced and the services have become increasingly top-heavy. This escalation has resulted in rank inflation whereby a holder's insignia no longer reflects his or her absolute power or responsibility. Essentially, rank now recognises the relative scales of pay, privileges and status needed to retain someone's services. For example, the RN's 'all of one company' ethos puts its doctors and dentists in uniform and gives them stripes appropriate to their relative professional status and seniority. That's why, for example, the media's much-vaunted total of admirals in the Royal Navy includes Surgeon Vice Admiral Philip Raffaelli (Surgeon General of the Armed Forces) and Surgeon Rear Admiral C J G McArthur (Commander Joint Medical Command). Exceptionally, chaplains in the RN are not given stripes but there are understandable reasons for this and they are compensated in other ways. The full list of active Admirals and RM Generals serving in the Naval Service is available here. We can compare the Armed Forces with another public organisation to see the irrelevance of military rank to absolute pay, power and status:
AIM OF ORGANISATION UK ARMED FORCES: To defend the United Kingdom, and Overseas Territories, its people and interests and to act as a force for good by strengthening international peace and security. BBC: To educate, inform and entertain. NUMBER OF FULL TIME EMPLOYEES (2013 FIGURES) UK ARMED FORCES: c.170,000 uniformed personnel (excluding reserves and civil servants) BBC: c.23,000 staff SIZE OF BUDGET UK ARMED FORCES: c.£42bn BBC: c.£5bn SALARY OF HEAD OF ORGANISATION UK ARMED FORCES: Gen Sir Nick Houghton, Chief of Defence Staff - £240k (link) BBC: George Entwistle, Director General - £450k (down from £671k for Mark Thompson) (link) OTHER STAFF WITH SALARIES OVER £200K UK ARMED FORCES (link) Nil (Highest salary for a normal 4* RN Admiral/RM General (1 in the Naval Service), Army General (4 in the Army) or Air Chief Marshal (2 in the RAF) is £187k for 2013-2014). BBC (link) Peter Salmon, Director, BBC North (£375k) Helen Boarden, Director, Radio (£340k) Tim Davie, CEO, BBC Worldwide & Director, Global (£335k) Zarin Patel, Former Chief Financial Officer (£322k) Lucy Adams, Director HR (£320k) Bal Samra, Commercial Director (£315k) Dominic Coles, Director of Operations (£300k) James Purnell, Director, Strategy & Digital (£295k) Ralph Rivera, Director, Future Media (£295k) John Linwood, Chief Technology Officer (£280k) Roger Mosey, Editorial Director (£270k) Danny Cohen, Director, Television (£262k) Daniel Danker, Former General Manager, Products & On Demand (£246k) John Yorke, Controller of Drama Production and New Talent (£240k) Ben Stephenson, Controller, Drama Commissioning (£240k) Peter Horrocks, Director, Global News (£233k) Janice Hadlow, Controller, BBC Two and Interim Controller, BBC Four (£227k) Emma Swain, Head of Knowledge Commissioning (£220k) Roger Wright, Controller, Radio 3 and Director, BBC Proms (£220k) Beverley Tew, Group Finance Director (£214k) Bob Shennan, Controller, Radio 2, 6 Music and Asian Network (£213k) Mark Freeland, Head of Comedy (£212k) Zai Bennett, Controller, BBC Three (£212k) Anne Morrison, Training Academy Director (£210k) Philip Almond, Director, Marketing (£210k) Nick Betts, Controller of Business, Drama, Films and Acquisitions, Television (£210k) Nicolas Brown, Director, Drama Productions, Vision (£210k) Lisa Opie, Controller of Business, Knowledge and Daytime (£208k) Shane Allen, Controller, Comedy Commissioning, Television (£207k) Andy Griffee, Project Director, W1 (£207k) Kate Harwood, Head of Drama, England (£205k) Sarah Jones, Group General Counsel, Operations (£205k) Graham Ellis, Controller Production and Deputy Director, Radio (£202k) Mark Linsey, Controller, Entertainment Commissioning (£202k)​
Perhaps the First Sea Lord is in the wrong game? He could be making far more money as the BBC's Head of Comedy.
Slightly off topic but it's a certainty that the axe will fall on the BBC post the 2015 election, both the main parties are committed to slashing their bloated organization & cost. Very little upsets the "seniors" more then the BBC licence fee.
 
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You know what's scary, for me, about the names on that BBC list?

I don't recognise a single one of them.

Numerically, a closer comparison could be drawn between the BBC & the RN, which would bring home your point in even starker contrast.

As Admiral Zambellas has an excellent sense of humour, I've no doubt he could handle both jobs simultaneously.

I'm sure the RN could get Shep Woolley for less than the BBC pays some of its stars, too: ;-)
Daily Telegraph 14 Jul 2012 said:
More than a dozen of the BBC’s biggest television and radio stars are paid more than £500,000 despite corporation attempts to cut costs...

Household names said to be earning more than £1m are believed to include Graham Norton, the BBC One chat show host, Chris Evans, the BBC Radio 2 host, and Gary Lineker, the Match of the Day host. Others likely to be members of the “half-a-million-plus club” are Alan Hansen, the football pundit and Jeremy Paxman, the Newsnight host...
 

tomcat24

Lantern Swinger
(don't answer if it's classified) how many ships are there in commission which actually have a 4-ring CO as opposed to a lower rank? I fancy the number of sea commands for Captains must now be vanishingly small.

So for most Cdrs all that yawns before most of them is a succession of desks ashore, and it will not escape their notice that their contemporaries of similar ability are coining it in civilian life.

So it's not just about numbers, it's about retaining the real talent we need to keep the RN on the top line.

PS I don't know any of the current top table, they are all mere boys to me.

I don't think its fixed. Look at the RN website, there's one full captain amongst in command of the Type 23 frigates. None of the Type 45 at present have a captain in charge--used to be for Daring and Dauntless no longer. SSNs an SSBNs COs are still commanders.
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
Slightly off topic but it's a certainty that the axe will fall on the BBC post the 2015 election, both the main parties are committed to slashing their bloated organization & cost.
Yep it's quite interesting looking through their individual expenses, gifts & hospitality, if you click on each senior manager: BBC - Inside the BBC - Senior staff biographies

What is interesting is all the taxis, hotels, flights & hotels are paid by the BBC upfront. Funny how the mob insists we pay hotels & taxis upfront personally, isn't it?
 
Actually, why does the UK need a Joint Forces Command? I dont really see the need for a Joint Forces Command--PJHQ is good enough. You can cut waste by reducing the number of senior officers in JFC.

It is intended to prevent an incestuous relationship developing between the enablers and the operators so that capability is based on the requirements of warfare development, not vice-versa. (Interesting question - Does technology govern one's choice of capability or should one's requirement govern technology? Some years ago, I advised the then incoming Director of the Maritime Warfare Centre that we should exploit emerging technology but not be slaves to it... if it ain't broke, etc.)

Here's chapter and verse from the Levene Report into Defence Reform - An independent report into the structure and management of the Ministry of Defence dated June 2011:

Part 9: Jointery and the Joint Forces Command

Key recommendation 7. Some military capabilities have to be integrated on a ‘joint’ basis in order to effectively enable operations. Such enabling capabilities need more effective proponency within Defence. To that end, a Joint Forces Command should be created to manage and deliver specific joint capabilities and to take the lead on joint warfare development, drawing on lessons and experimentation to advise on how the Armed Forces should conduct joint operations in the future. Certain joint and Defence capabilities should continue to be delivered on a ‘lead Service’ basis.

a. The Joint Forces Command should be led by a military 4 star, and should have responsibility for commanding and generating the joint capabilities allocated to it and setting the framework for joint enablers that sit in the single Services.

b. As a result, a number of military organisations currently managed by the Central TLB should pass to the Joint Forces Command.

c. The Permanent Joint Headquarters should sit within the Joint Forces Command, but report for operational purposes direct to the CDS.

d. In implementing the Joint Forces Command, the Department should systematically review joint or potentially joint capabilities and functions across the Services against the criteria set out below to determine which might be rationalised, the merit of further joint organisations, which should transfer to the Joint Forces Command and which should transfer to a lead Service.
 
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