LSA during CV-19

Paxman_Valenta

Badgeman
Hypothetical (for now!) scenario:

Jack lives onboard within a shore establishment. His permanent home address is about 160 miles away, and he would normally commute to and from that home address at weekends, claiming the monies back via GYH pay.

If, because of C-19, that weekend leave is stopped, meaning Jack can no longer commute to and from his home address, would he be eligible for LSA (if the involuntary separation is longer than 7 days)?

I've had v.brief look at the JSP and there's lots of clauses/sub-clauses where it may or may not apply but would appreciate someone with a bit more experience in this field to either tell me yes/no or guide me to some further reading.

TIA.
 

soleil

War Hero
Hypothetical (for now!) scenario:

Jack lives onboard within a shore establishment. His permanent home address is about 160 miles away, and he would normally commute to and from that home address at weekends, claiming the monies back via GYH pay.

If, because of C-19, that weekend leave is stopped, meaning Jack can no longer commute to and from his home address, would he be eligible for LSA (if the involuntary separation is longer than 7 days)?

I've had v.brief look at the JSP and there's lots of clauses/sub-clauses where it may or may not apply but would appreciate someone with a bit more experience in this field to either tell me yes/no or guide me to some further reading.

TIA.
PV

Hopefully someone who can quote chapter and verse will be along in a bit, but I was wondering whether the JPAC would know.

Tel

0800 085 3600

They close at 4 pm today.
 

redmonkey

Lantern Swinger
Book Reviewer
In that situation Jack be at his normal place of duty.
If Jack has a weekend duty he cannot go home and he doesn't get LSA for that period until he can go home again.
Whilst living onboard he would be at his Permanent Work Address and that would then prevent the paying of LSA.

That is how I see it although I am not a writer so i may be talking complete cobblers.

I have been on a ship which when through a fast cruise during trials. (Tied up in the dock yard but we had to carry out normal sea routines and the gang way was closed.) This lasted 2 maybe 3 weeks (distant past now so may be wrong on timeframe) however we did not qualify for LSA for that period due to being in our home port.
 

crash_evans

War Hero
Hypothetical (for now!) scenario:

Jack lives onboard within a shore establishment. His permanent home address is about 160 miles away, and he would normally commute to and from that home address at weekends, claiming the monies back via GYH pay.

If, because of C-19, that weekend leave is stopped, meaning Jack can no longer commute to and from his home address, would he be eligible for LSA (if the involuntary separation is longer than 7 days)?

I've had v.brief look at the JSP and there's lots of clauses/sub-clauses where it may or may not apply but would appreciate someone with a bit more experience in this field to either tell me yes/no or guide me to some further reading.

TIA.
As far as I am aware, to receive LSA you need to be on a recognised seagoing/deploying platform and away from your base port from 2359 to 2359 for a minimum of one day.

As you are required to stay onboard, you won’t be required to go home, therefore won’t complete any journeys so can’t claim HDT (as you are outside of the 50 mile limit). GYH is up to 50 (or over with CO’s approval).

As the shore base you’re on is no deployable , I BELIEVE you are not entitled to LSA or HDT.

The same as though who are required to work from home will have their HDT stopped. As, technically they aren’t completing any journeys.

I’ll have a look at the JSP later.


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cjg375

Lantern Swinger
As far as I am aware, to receive LSA you need to be on a recognised seagoing/deploying platform and away from your base port from 2359 to 2359 for a minimum of one day.

As you are required to stay onboard, you won’t be required to go home, therefore won’t complete any journeys so can’t claim HDT (as you are outside of the 50 mile limit). GYH is up to 50 (or over with CO’s approval).

As the shore base you’re on is no deployable , I BELIEVE you are not entitled to LSA or HDT.

The same as though who are required to work from home will have their HDT stopped. As, technically they aren’t completing any journeys.

I’ll have a look at the JSP later.


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You are falling into the error of thinking the S in LSA is sea. It’s separation and LSA is a joint allowance. You are however correct that you need to be away from your normal place of work so someone retained onboard a shore base for weekends would be unlikely to qualify for LSA.
 

crash_evans

War Hero
You are falling into the error of thinking the S in LSA is sea. It’s separation and LSA is a joint allowance. You are however correct that you need to be away from your normal place of work so someone retained onboard a shore base for weekends would be unlikely to qualify for LSA.
TBF, I’m a dabber not a loggie! If you work off the fact you have to be away - I don’t think you can go far wrong.


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cjg375

Lantern Swinger
TBF, I’m a dabber not a loggie! If you work off the fact you have to be away - I don’t think you can go far wrong.


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When on a P2000 away from base port we had huge arguments with the loggies about when precisely LSA should start if we had a weekend home, came back Sunday night and then sailed on the following Saturday. They just could not get their heads around the fact that it’s not a Seagoing allowance it’s a Seperation allowance. Just kept saying “but you’ve not gone to sea!” Didn’t win but got my head into the JSP to be able to lose a few hours of life arguing with them.
 

redmonkey

Lantern Swinger
Book Reviewer
I think I t used to be that you had to be away from your base port for 10 days before LSA would kick in and then you would be paid for the days away. One exception was if you were in field conditions when you were paid from day one.

Any time back at home would reset the counter to zero. .

Again not a writer and I haven't gone through the JSP so I may be very wrong.
 

pompeyexpat

War Hero
It's an interesting question, and I've been pondering something along those lines after seeing a video about RMAS Sandhurst instructors being required to stay on the camp.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...878289/20200401-JSP_752_v42_Apr_2020_1_v2.pdf Chapter 10 Section 1 covers LSA

Now I'm not part of the White Mafia and their interpretation of the JSP may differ to mine, but as I read it;

The time required to qualify for payment is 7 days. (I've been under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that days spent unable to travel home when you normally would (e.g. when duty) accrue you LSA days, just not the payment because for that it needs to be 7 days consecutive as below);

"Qualifying Separation (QS). Qualifying Separation (QS) is defined as 7 consecutive days or more INVOLSEP that is taken at a location that precludes return to the duty station, family home or permanent residence during normal stand down periods (e.g. weekends)"

If you are involuntarily separated, i.e. you can't go home even though you normally would, then you're eligible;

"Eligibility

10.0104
. Eligible Service Personnel. Service personnel (irrespective of PStat Cat) will be eligible for payment of LSA if they satisfy the specific eligibility criteria for any one of the following 3 types of separation:

a. Involuntary Separation (INVOLSEP) (see paragraphs 10.0108 to 10.0112)."

"10.0108
. Eligibility. Service personnel involuntarily separated (irrespective of PStat Cat) will be eligible for payment of LSA. Payment of LSA will start from the first day of QS."


The above excerpts from JSP 752 say to me that if you have to remain at work when you would normally not be required you accrue LSA days - after 7 they start paying you. Not being at sea has nothing to do with it.

I don't think you should have to pay for food either. When duty I'm entitled to be fed at Crown expense because I can't reasonably be expected to get food from anywhere else than the mess. If you're operating under a 'closed gangway' then you can't be expected to get food from anywhere else.
 
Loggie Writer here. Obviously. This turned out a lot longer than I expected, along with abbreviating the JSP a tad where I can. The main thrust is the bottom two paragraphs that really apply to your situation as I understand it.

--
So LSA actually kicks in as follows:

Day 1 from leaving alongside, even if you get back at 0001 the following day, also Day 1 of exercise or field conditions.
Day 7 from being away from your unit when elsewhere (unless you actually have the opportunity to go home at weekends).

That's the rough gist of it.

However, what you actually want is Annex B to Section 1 of Chapter 2 of JSP 752, as this broadly covers what INVOLSEP is.

Abbreviated, the following applies:

a) on any assignment of 12 months or less
b) When PS1 s/c and assigned away from the partner further than 50 miles away and don't share a family home
c) Waiting to occupy SFA (delay through personal choice is VOLSEP)
d) waiting for a house sale/purchase for... reasons.
e) Attending a course for periods of up to 12 months (hence why career courses are not entitled)
f) Excercise or Field Conditions
g) PS2 separated from their child under CEA conditions
h) More CEA stuff
i) Serving unaccompanied for schooling for a BTEC course for the kid, with casework submitted
j) When assigned to an operational post and expected to do so for 9 months or longer and opts to move the family in anticipation of this tour.
k) On assignment to an FCO post designated "no child". If there's no children for the SP it's VOLSEP.

Compelling reasons for serving INVOLSEP need to be submitted for PACCC authority.
a) and b) medical reasons for child or partner
c) care of elderly or infirm parents where other family members can't step up and take responsibility
d) When the SP's partner has a binding work contract that can't be broken at short notice
e) SFA retained to complete an educational course by the spouse
f) When resettlement plans are finalised but then an extension of service is offered and can't move everyone back
g) Assigned to somewhere dangerous overseas
h) Assigned overseas but educational standards are lower than the UK

3. Bumph about submitting PACCC casework for consideration

4. Where INVOLSEP is not authorised, SP will be classed as VOLSEP

5. PS5 considered INVOLSEP when temporary detached for 7 days or more and can't return to the duty station on stand down or weekends.

--
Where the claim for INVOLSEP might fail is in 10.0103, sub para e. where "Qualifying Separation is defined as 7 consecutive days or more of INVOLSEP that is taken at a location that precludes return to the duty statiom, family home or permanent residence during normal stand down periods (e.g. weekends). It might be argued that because you're able to rest at your permanent duty station, you're not actually fulfilling that criteria.

However, you can probably argue that you could be entitled to VOLSEP instead - this will still need PACCC casework, but essentially what you're going to be saying is, because you're a good egg and not risked travelling home to keep your family safe and staying on barracks during the weekends - you should be entitled to LSA Level 1 for VOLSEP service. So you'll be requesting £7.45 per day (£223.50 for June) for not being patient zero, instead of getting a GYH daily rate of £5.83 (£174.90) for 160 miles travelling.

You'll probably have more success with this method.

If you do go the INVOLSEP method, don't expect it to work because if you get it at the level of LSA you're at, it'll end up in a free for all which could cause the MOD to have an even bigger shortfall than usual - unless the treasury starts knocking on furloughed doors; you can guarantee that the surly sprog in JPAC (sorry, DBS) in Glasgow tasked to process this will accidentally on purpose release the information and marking "service personnel as greedy bastards and OMFG why aren't nurses getting this?". Plus a few others.

Personally, if you feel you must, I would go the VOLSEP option as that's the one that you'll have the more compelling case with.
 

crash_evans

War Hero
If it is any help to anyone, I’m in DRAKE. The FOST staff who are told to self isolate prior to going on a certain large flat topped vessel are in receipt of LSA.

I am due to self isolate 2 weeks prior to a short notice assignment order to join the duty TAPS. I will be in receipt of LSA. I’ll take the £30 a day thank you pusser.


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Alfacharlie

War Hero
If it is any help to anyone, I’m in DRAKE. The FOST staff who are told to self isolate prior to going on a certain large flat topped vessel are in receipt of LSA.

I am due to self isolate 2 weeks prior to a short notice assignment order to join the duty TAPS. I will be in receipt of LSA. I’ll take the £30 a day thank you pusser.


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Duty TAPS?! You can keep that too!
 

redmonkey

Lantern Swinger
Book Reviewer
I suppose as you are joining a deployed ship they are saying that you cannot go home until the ship docks again, therefore your deployment starts when you get put into quarantine and cannot go home to your normal place of residence.
 
So, what's the bottom line then o_O
Bottom line: approach the UPO that you meet the conditions for VOLSEP as a minimum, if they disagree you'll have to put PACCC Casework together to get what you should be owed.

You may want to slap your unit for having not already put a business case together in the first place.
 

redmonkey

Lantern Swinger
Book Reviewer
@crash_evans.
Either you have a particular niche family activity or duty TAPS is bad.
How bad is it?
 

crash_evans

War Hero
@crash_evans.
Either you have a particular niche family activity or duty TAPS is bad.
How bad is it?
Duty TAPS and the Fleet Ready Escort are now combined, with the current activity ‘up North’ it is a very busy period.


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