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Long Deployments / Service Culture push sailors to leave the Navy

SEP86

War Hero
Quote - They strongly believed the Navy was risk-averse and unable to stomach mistakes, and they held that performance rankings are based on factors other than merit. - Unquote

That could never happen in the RN.
 
Once a belief takes sufficient hold, it becomes increasingly difficult to rebut. In other news:

Pompey News 2 Oct 2014: Rumours of HMS Dragon staff shortage are quashed

RUMOURS on social media that HMS Dragon was being brought back to Portsmouth because of a lack of engineers on board have been quashed by the Royal Navy.

A spokesman for the navy said the ship has been going in and out of Portsmouth Harbour on training exercises and continues to do so.

It comes after The News reported on Wednesday that personnel from the US Coastguard are being brought to the city because of a lack of staff.

A spokesman said the rumours were untrue.​
 

babygravy

Lantern Swinger
The ships will still sail, but with gapped billets. Ship's company end up picking up the work-load of the gaps.
 
Back to the days of the press I reckon. RN ship outward bound should put a boarding party aboard any merchie in the SW approaches and take whatever engineers they need...;)
 

tommo

War Hero
Once a belief takes sufficient hold, it becomes increasingly difficult to rebut. In other news:

Pompey News 2 Oct 2014: Rumours of HMS Dragon staff shortage are quashed

RUMOURS on social media that HMS Dragon was being brought back to Portsmouth because of a lack of engineers on board have been quashed by the Royal Navy.

A spokesman for the navy said the ship has been going in and out of Portsmouth Harbour on training exercises and continues to do so.

It comes after The News reported on Wednesday that personnel from the US Coastguard are being brought to the city because of a lack of staff.

A spokesman said the rumours were untrue.​

It can't be true about US CG engineers as it was on our Daily Lies nothing is true on that
 

danny

War Hero
The navy is fucked end of dit. I honestly don't see how they can fix it either as it seems to be just getting worse and worse.
 
The navy is fucked end of dit. I honestly don't see how they can fix it either as it seems to be just getting worse and worse.

He's not far off the truth and some of the good ideas to fix it coming out of "Castle Greystoke" need to be seen to be believed. USCG; you've seen fcuk all yet!
 

danny

War Hero
I just keep seeing people who I thought were nailed on 22 year people announcing there notice on facebook. With a reduction in perks everybody seems to have decided it's not worth the hassle.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
I just keep seeing people who I thought were nailed on 22 year people announcing there notice on facebook. With a reduction in perks everybody seems to have decided it's not worth the hassle.

Often that's a different case from actually doing it. I don't see that the 'perks' have eroded that much. The bottom line is still your salary and LSA, compared with civvy jobs for most people they are still good.

I met an ex 1* on Wed who couldn't believe how cut throught it was outside, sort of makes a point when a guy like him hackers to be back in.

The point to take away is that manning is on everyone's radar and we have a Comprehensive Spending Review soon, to be followed by a Strategic Defence and Security Review. These are when the Senior Management can stake their claim to start to really rectify issues.

But it won't happen overnight
 

danny

War Hero
Often that's a different case from actually doing it. I don't see that the 'perks' have eroded that much. The bottom line is still your salary and LSA, compared with civvy jobs for most people they are still good.

I met an ex 1* on Wed who couldn't believe how cut throught it was outside, sort of makes a point when a guy like him hackers to be back in.

The point to take away is that manning is on everyone's radar and we have a Comprehensive Spending Review soon, to be followed by a Strategic Defence and Security Review. These are when the Senior Management can stake their claim to start to really rectify issues.

But it won't happen overnight

I just don't agree that the perks haven't been eroded. The pension is not what it was, there doesn't seem to be the travel that there once was. Unless of course you like the gulf.
If your an engineer the salary just doesn't seem to cut it. I can honestly say I don't know many engineers who have left and are working on much less of a salary than they were when they were in. Yeah ok unless you get offshore or something similar you loose the LSA money but your also not away for 7+ months of the year.
You may believe its a competitive package but I and many others don't and we have voted with out feet.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
I just don't agree that the perks haven't been eroded.

I didn't say hadn't been, I said "that much" - its all comparative. You find less and less civvy firms pay you to travel to work. Less and less civvy firms offer as much leave. Not aware of many that offer a housing scheme like we have or a welfare system like we do?

The pension is not what it was

It's not, but I still think it's significantly better than many external schemes, and that you can leave after 22 years and get another career and pension makes it still a great facet of our employment.

there doesn't seem to be the travel that there once was. Unless of course you like the gulf.

The Navy doesn't choose where it sails or where trouble may be. I think we all realised that when we joined. Actually its quite amusing you post that as I listened to a JR yesterday bleating about being drafted to a ship doing APT(N) - "urgrh I've got to go to the Caribbean for 6 months urghh" - he was like a grumpy teenager (well probably was) - first time there and not enjoying the prospect? What on earth? We joined the Navy - what did he (and more) expect?

If your an engineer the salary just doesn't seem to cut it. I can honestly say I don't know many engineers who have left and are working on much less of a salary than they were when they were in. Yeah ok unless you get offshore or something similar you loose the LSA money but your also not away for 7+ months of the year.

That's hugely generalising things. Most Naval engineers earn a lot more than their civvy counterparts and a lot of offshore people get messed around to a degree that makes the RN looks a idyllic employer. I'd agree most get a broadly similar salary, but many spend a lot of time away from home. Lots of my friends are in the same position - they left, earn similar, spend time away from home, same as we do.

I know, from experience, you really do earn your money outside and it's competitive. Fail to deliver and you're out on your ear. Lots of people mis-underestimate that in civvy street, the bottom line is all that matters.

You may believe its a competitive package but I and many others don't and we have voted with out feet.

That's what adults do, make choices. I know I can earn around £30k extra on top of my current salary if I chose to leave but I'd have to work even harder than I do now and see even less of my family - for what after tax........ We all leave sometime, you just do it for your own reasons, on your own terms, in your own time.
 

danny

War Hero
You have an answer for everything but none of it answers the question as to why the navy is having to draft in Americans to do the job. If the pay and conditions were deemed good enough the Navy would not be in this position simple.
The fact that the navy is offering £50,000 FRIs to engineers should set alarm bells ringing, and if that doesn't the fact that people are turning it down and even repaying it should.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
You have an answer for everything

Well, disprove the comments I made then? Go out and find yourself a better pension, get that huge salary, work less hours and spend all your time with your family.....

but none of it answers the question as to why the navy is having to draft in Americans to do the job. If the pay and conditions were deemed good enough the Navy would not be in this position simple.

You're deluded if you think the problem the Navy faces is that simple, or is within the gift of the Navy to resolve. The Navy didn't (and still doesn't) want to have a Fleet the size we've dropped to today, our manning levels are set by Government and Treasury who are trying to set the wider conditions for UK Government and that then becomes a bigger argument. If we were allowed 'fat' we might possibly not be in this position, if we'd not been driven to reduce costs shoreside and take on things like Flagship we might not be in this position, but thats how life is. We've simply had to reduce operating costs and numbers and this is but one consequence.

So, we were set manpower targets, we already had recruiting issues, the economies picking up, people are leaving (natural process) and we don't have control of the levers we'd like to use to retain. Even FRIs aren't within the Navies gift - they are a tool to request to use.

Ultimately we are bringing in less than 50 people. I think we are not quite as broken as people feel.

The fact that the navy is offering £50,000 FRIs to engineers should set alarm bells ringing, and if that doesn't the fact that people are turning it down and even repaying it should.

That's happened for years and years; When you have niche areas that you need for regulatory or service needs, be that Nuclear qualified watch keepers, or Aircrew, you will always have an issue retaining people as and when economies improve, especially with a system that takes people very young for a limited time. We're not

Thats when people take the decision based upon broader facts and experiences because they've grown up. At that point priorities and needs have changed. Look back at the early 90s when the airlines all expanded and made great offers to aircrew - experienced guys, especially the multi engined people who have done 12-16 years were all in demand and the Navy couldn't compete with the salaries being offered.
 

danny

War Hero
Well, disprove the comments I made then? Go out and find yourself a better pension, get that huge salary, work less hours and spend all your time with your family.....

But my point is the pension and the salary are not good enough to make it worth it. The pension is easily better than anything I could get I won't argue that point but its not enough to trap people like it once was and that is being proven.
The salary isn't all that I have friends who work for BAE the same age and get paid more than a killick, and I'm not talking about them doing anything super dooper as a job. Yes that includes overtime but they are at home every night.
My last week in work was an around 90 hours, ok I may have slept 15 of those. The coming week is shaping up to be much the same.

Only 50 people coming across? But are those 50 not all serving on type 23s?
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
But my point is the pension and the salary are not good enough to make it worth it. The pension is easily better than anything I could get I won't argue that point but its not enough to trap people like it once was and that is being proven.

I think this is more about peoples expectations. I am going to guess I am markedly older than you - when we joined (and most of my batch are still in) we all knew the first 8-12 years would be spent being thrashed at sea, then a mixture and then less sea time. That we accepted, I sense people now are far less accepting/stoic and want a flexibility the Forces generally can't offer. At the end of the day, the old adage "the needs of the Service" ring true, but society has changed and isn't producing people who can live up to that plus we aren't given the freedom to create flex. Maybe, just maybe, NEM will help?

The salary isn't all that I have friends who work for BAE the same age and get paid more than a killick, and I'm not talking about them doing anything super dooper as a job. Yes that includes overtime but they are at home every night.

The point I was trying to make is that in general we are paid better than out civilian counterparts. Of course there are exceptions and where people leave with experience and skills that industry want, especially in niche engineering, EOD, or aircrew trades for example but for there are rafts of people who leave and end up being broadly financially less well of. Your mate in BAe won't get subsidised housing, healthcare or a mess for example, so on the face of it he's better off. In the long term perhaps less so.

My last week in work was an around 90 hours, ok I may have slept 15 of those. The coming week is shaping up to be much the same.

Thats no less common outside and I work ludicrous hours too, its one reason I choose to stay in (at the moment) because I know outside the jobs I've looked at are the same if not worse. Like I said, in the real world they get their pound of flesh and then some..

You want to work less hours, look very carefully at jobs outside.

Only 50 people coming across? But are those 50 not all serving on type 23s?

I think they are (I'm not involved in this in any way) - its probably related to specific equipment's and experiences (at a guess) and the T23s are the workhorses so we need them as fully manned as possible.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
I'm just trying to add some balance. It's really easy to sit back and snipe at the Navy but you have to remember and look at it for what it really is. It's a huge system that exists to serve the purpose of the Country (Government) - it can't change overnight, has amazingly limited freedoms to change in size/scope because that is set by Politicians.

I genuinely believe the gown-ups understand the issues we face, perhaps all too well. I suspect they know the answers, they're painful, costly and need to be fought in London and it's a game we've not been good at playing for a long time, especially since the Land environment took central stage due to Telic and Herrick.
 

danny

War Hero
I think this is more about peoples expectations. I am going to guess I am markedly older than you - when we joined (and most of my batch are still in) we all knew the first 8-12 years would be spent being thrashed at sea, then a mixture and then less sea time. That we accepted, I sense people now are far less accepting/stoic and want a flexibility the Forces generally can't offer. At the end of the day, the old adage "the needs of the Service" ring true, but society has changed and isn't producing people who can live up to that plus we aren't given the freedom to create flex. Maybe, just maybe, NEM will help?

I think people would be happy if they thought that 8-12 years would be at sea, but where are the inboard drafts? I have been lucky although inboard my drafts have been classed as seagoing as they have been deployable. I am the exception.
The majority get to 8 years now having only had career courses inboard, during which they get stitched to do non job duties at Collingwood in a duty watch of about 35 when it could easily be done with 10. They still haven't got a shore draft in sight and think bollocks to that.
In my current role the inboard drafts aren't even any better as they are understaffed as well and they end up working stupid hours with SRs instead volunteering to stay on a running platform.
I suspect you are quite a bit older than me and potentially look at it that you either have little time to do so its easy to put up with or your time done and know you can walk away with a nice pension at only a years notice.
I can honestly tell you as someone with another 13 years until the end of his 22 it is just not worth the hassle. I can honestly say the only person in my peer group who either hasn't got his notice in or seriously considering it is a total leg iron who will NPFS his way out of any sea time over that which is required for him to get his rate.
 
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