Let battle commence!

subseawarrior said:
......You have to ask how much of this do we see returned through our own economy?......

Not sure that there was ever any suggestion that Overseas Development Aid was ever promised to be returned to the donor economy. By definition, UK plc does not require ODA, but I would like to see some reassurance that ODA is spent on those who need the aid, rather than just being dumped into receiving government coffers.

I do not believe that any country that has Armed Forces should be in receipt of ODA.
 
asst_dep_to_dep_asst said:
subseawarrior said:
......You have to ask how much of this do we see returned through our own economy?......

Not sure that there was ever any suggestion that Overseas Development Aid was ever promised to be returned to the donor economy. By definition, UK plc does not require ODA, but I would like to see some reassurance that ODA is spent on those who need the aid, rather than just being dumped into receiving government coffers.

I do not believe that any country that has Armed Forces should be in receipt of ODA.

The UK is surprisingly one of the better nations at not just handing buckets of gold over to despots ets. Much UK aid is very targeted. I used to know a vet who since qualifying had been part of the overseas aid programme. He would go to various countries for a good few years at a time and work at improving livestock health and productivity. Now this literally put meat in the bellies and cash in the pockets of the rural poor.

In reality overseas aid by raising people out of poverty helps us, because when some one stops being poor they become a consumer and more consumers expend the world economy which especially at the present helps us. So aid is not altruistic at all it is all about growing the number of consumers to expand trade and thus our wealth.

ps All countries have armed forces, though some may not be very big or effective, they exist.
 

NZ_Bootneck

War Hero
redassnotdragass said:
The welfare state is ultimately the root cause of much unemployment and is the reason why so many people were prepared to migrate across Europe to take jobs that British people would not do. There was nothing wriong with the jobs, which obviously had fair pay otherwise people wouldn't have travelled halfway across the continent to do them. The problem is the sloth classes who are too used to government subsidies to fund their flat screen tellies.

Unions out, tax and spend Labour out.
I think you'll find that unemployment skyrocketed in'80-'81under Thatcher and that prior to the Falklands she was reviled by most and was contemplating massive cuts to the Forces.
Your argument that Eastern Europeans are willing to migrate to the UK to do work that Britons don't or won't do for the offered rate of pay may have more to do with the unemployment and poor pay conditions in their own countries rather than the 'brilliant' pay and conditions offered in the UK.
After all five quid an hour may look great to a Pole who left Gdansk on 3, that rate may not be attractive to a Briton used to higher wages.
Perhaps British asperations will have to be lowered in the present economic climate, then when the employers of those Eastern Europeans drop their rates we can see how attractive these jobs are as the Poles vote with their feet and bugger off home again.
 
It would be interesting to see the statistics which prove that it is not alturistic. I have seen aid distributed in the field many times (at operational and stratetgic levels) and I cannot envisage any return on the enormous investment I witnessed for decades if at all.
 

Karma

War Hero
subseawarrior said:
It would be interesting to see the statistics which prove that it is not alturistic. I have seen aid distributed in the field many times (at operational and stratetgic levels) and I cannot envisage any return on the enormous investment I witnessed for decades if at all.

What do you define as ''aid'' in this context?
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
subseawarrior said:
It would be interesting to see the statistics which prove that it is not alturistic. I have seen aid distributed in the field many times (at operational and stratetgic levels) and I cannot envisage any return on the enormous investment I witnessed for decades if at all.


40 years of aid to Africa has not resulted in an increase in life expectacy there, quite the contrary.

QED: All the money was wasted as all that happens is that the various tin pot dictators just funnel off more funds to their Swiss bank accounts the more aid there is.
 

Karma

War Hero
subseawarrior said:
Hard cash and lots of it.

It seems to vary a lot, the ODA projects I've seen haven't dealt much in handing over cash to the host government. Lots of bringing in private sector organisations to deliver capabilities, or the use of UK public sector people for training and the like. We've put a lot into building capability in the police forces and judiciary in the Balkans as an example, we also pay for a firm based in Belfast to put governance in place.

My own thought is that we're least successful in Africa, but my only experience there was Sierra Leone, and that's seen as a success. Most of my experience is South Asia and Gulf states, which have been reasonably effective.

A lot of the money that goes into disbandment and disarmament does seem to disappear, and I don't know of any DDRR programme that's been particularly effective. It appears to be too early in the conflict cycle but it does seem to have political support.
 
Interesting. I cant help but think that this particular activity, if it has a return is extremely long term and that with the immediacy of everything which effects the Armed Forces through short sighted politics Foreign Aid stands out as odd and inappropriate at the scale being delivered.
 

Karma

War Hero
ODA is quite badly affected by politics as well. As in the UK being seen to be doing something tends to outweigh actually doing something useful and effective, which means about half the projects don't get seen through to completion.

It depends on how you see the returns working out.

I think the common theme on this is that the government need to establish and communicate priorities, and those priorities will depend on what the electorate want.
 
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