Leading Hands and Corporals Mess @ Culdrose

Would you be happy having this forced upon you?


  • Total voters
    187
#41
slim said:
chieftiff said:
jungle_jim said:
but i do not know if their status has risen to bring them in line with the rest.
Yes they have, all 3 services' Queens Regulations have now been amended to show L/H as equivelant to Cpl as of 2005.
Oi Chief, that RDP calendar is almost as bad as the dabbers up the duff one :pukel:
And chief tiff, what makes you think outside is the real world?
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
#42
Maxi_77 said:
slim said:
chieftiff said:
jungle_jim said:
but i do not know if their status has risen to bring them in line with the rest.
Yes they have, all 3 services' Queens Regulations have now been amended to show L/H as equivelant to Cpl as of 2005.
Oi Chief, that RDP calendar is almost as bad as the dabbers up the duff one :pukel:
And chief tiff, what makes you think outside is the real world?
Slim, but it still makes me smile everytime I see it :w00t:

Maxi, because it couldn't get any more surreal than this world!
 
#43
chieftiff said:
Maxi_77 said:
slim said:
chieftiff said:
jungle_jim said:
but i do not know if their status has risen to bring them in line with the rest.
Yes they have, all 3 services' Queens Regulations have now been amended to show L/H as equivelant to Cpl as of 2005.
Oi Chief, that RDP calendar is almost as bad as the dabbers up the duff one :pukel:
And chief tiff, what makes you think outside is the real world?
Slim, but it still makes me smile everytime I see it :w00t:

Maxi, because it couldn't get any more surreal than this world!
Chief Tiff
If it's any consolation though I enjoyed my life in the RN I enjoyed the following years spent as a civilian far more. I earned more money, travelled more, lived and worked in more countries but most of all was given more respect.
Hope you enjoy your new life when it starts. :thumright:
 
#44
You will find Chieftiff that the Armed Forces are not exempt from compliance with legislation. Whilst there are certain dispensations where appropriate, members of the forces do still have a freedom to choose. It is a human right as exemplified by the legalisation of homosexuality within the forces. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, QRs were incompatible with the human rights act and as such were changed. Article 8 of the Act does not say 'where practicable' and even if it did it would not give you the right to disregard it as you see fit without justification. There is nothing inpracticable about making mess fees voluntary. In fact, article 8 is 'qualified'. This, by defenition in the Act means, 'there shall be no interference with the exersize of this right EXCEPT such as in accordance with the law AND is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others'. I believe you would be hard pushed to demonstrate that not paying a mess fee would be detramental to any of the above qualifying criteria. The forces can be taken to industrial tribunals (QRRNs). The rules can be challenged. It is the absolute right of every member of the armed forces to submit a complaint and I believe anyone, JR, SR or Officer who disagrees with mess fees on principle or otherwise should excersize their option to do so.
 

the_matelot

War Hero
Moderator
#45
Drippy said:
I believe you would be hard pushed to demonstrate that not paying a mess fee would be detramental to any of the above qualifying criteria. The forces can be taken to industrial tribunals (QRRNs). The rules can be challenged. It is the absolute right of every member of the armed forces to submit a complaint and I believe anyone, JR, SR or Officer who disagrees with mess fees on principle or otherwise should excersize their option to do so.
If you feel that strongly about it, hand your hooks in then...

Do you think I like paying a fcuking fortune on mess fees as a PO in a tri-service mess when I'm a watchkeeper and only eat in there? No, I don't. And to start going on about the HRA is using it out of context from what it was originally intended for. It wasn't drawn up so some killick could come onto a website and whinge like mad over something that costs roughly 2 pints a month.

Killicks have been going on and on for a while about how their Rate is recognised in comparison to the other 2 Services. A Killicks mess is a positive step forward however people like you are detrimental to LH clubs being successful. You only get out of your mess what you put into it.

It's £5 a month-get over it ffs. You can start whinging about it when your mess bill works out at over £1 a day when you go to places like Chicksands and it's self service like the JR's galley.
 

morsehorse

Lantern Swinger
#46
wavydavynavy said:
What is the general concensus on a LH's and Cpl's Mess? We have just been told that from July 1st we will all have to pay £5 per month for the privelige of having the same old Tavern Bar. No option of not paying. We have to pay otherwise there is a fine of £2.50 per month overdue.

Surely if RNAS Yeovilton can run their Hookies mess without taking money each month, then why can't Culdrose?

Can they really get away with this?

Any comments or suggestions greatly appreciated.
Give me your bank account details and will make you an allotment!!
An ex chief jenny who paid mess fees from 1974 thru 1992!!
Live with it!!
MH
xdx
 
#47
Drippy said:
.....It is the absolute right of every member of the armed forces to submit a complaint....
Crack on then.....

Of course the first recipient could also respond appropriately, as DOs thorughout history have responded to frivolous complaints....
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
#48
Drippy said:
You will find Chieftiff that the Armed Forces are not exempt from compliance with legislation. Whilst there are certain dispensations where appropriate, members of the forces do still have a freedom to choose. It is a human right as exemplified by the legalisation of homosexuality within the forces. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, QRs were incompatible with the human rights act and as such were changed. Article 8 of the Act does not say 'where practicable' and even if it did it would not give you the right to disregard it as you see fit without justification. There is nothing inpracticable about making mess fees voluntary. In fact, article 8 is 'qualified'. This, by defenition in the Act means, 'there shall be no interference with the exersize of this right EXCEPT such as in accordance with the law AND is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others'. I believe you would be hard pushed to demonstrate that not paying a mess fee would be detramental to any of the above qualifying criteria. The forces can be taken to industrial tribunals (QRRNs). The rules can be challenged. It is the absolute right of every member of the armed forces to submit a complaint and I believe anyone, JR, SR or Officer who disagrees with mess fees on principle or otherwise should excersize their option to do so.
Listen Drippy, I honestly couldn't give a flying f*ck if you pay mess fees or not, I do however recognise a knob when I read the utter drivel he spouts. You are either an incredibly incompetent lawyer who couldn't make his way in civvi street or just another dripping lower deck lawyer who regurgitates nonsense in the hope it will baffle people into submission, or boredom..... You succeeded on the second count in this case!

Regardless of that though you have directed your nonsense at the wrong person, I never suggested that the Armed Forces are exempt from the Human Rights Act. I know it's a contentious point in Law, I also know we are exempt from all but a couple of points of the Employment Act 1996 which is why you can proceed to industrial tribunal (under certain circumstances the main one being that you have presented your grievance to the chain of command and given them an appropriate time to respond.) We are however subject to the Naval Discipline Act (soon to be armed Forces Act), if you have a grievance you present it to your chain of command in your words or written statement.

I would however suggest reflecting, just for a second, on how your apparent attitude will present itself to your chain of command. ME, ME, ME, ME, ME and I,I,I do not represent the expected Leadership, Command or Team orientated attitude that I expect of a Leading Hand. But the RN has changed hence the little days to go chart displayed in my signature below. Good Luck with your complaint!

Incidentally, if you do present your complaint in the written format you may wish to avoid slipping into that bloody irritating tendency you have of Americanising everything with a "z" instead of the "s" given to us by the Queens English. It just looks like you have either googled, copied and pasted or don't know how to set up your spellchecker, even worse you could be mistaken for an American walt posing on a British website! God Forbid!
 
#49
Chieftiff,

I apologise if I have upset you by upsetting your 'old navy' world with a few home truths. I also apologise if my spelling has annoyed you, I thought it was a debate about mess fees, not a spelling test. Nor did I get personal with statements such a knob. I can only assume that your lack of any solid grounded arguments to support your point of view has led to your apparent frustration. With regards to my command and leadership abilities I can only point out that the RN itself invests much in advancing the debating abilities of it's personnel as evidenced during CW classes, LRCC and SRCC. It is probably best that you are leaving the RN soon as the days are long gone when you could just disregard someones complaint without justifying your reasons and bully your subordinates into submission. Thank god you are not my DO, that's all I can say.

P.S. Many apologies for any spelling mistakes. It is my hope that you might take in the general points I have made and not waste your time on my spelling and grammer. I think that would probably be much more constructive.
 
#51
The Matelot,

Yet again, your personal insult lacks any real founded arguments. You assume that everyone is like you and wants to drink and use a mess. How do you know that I'm not an ex alcoholic and can't go into a bar without turning into Barney from the Simpsons. If this was the case, no matter what is done with the mess it will be impracticle for me to use it. Please come back when you have a real grounded argument to make.
 
#52
Pol,

Thanks for the advice. I have every confidence that the div system and CoC will in time yield results. I posted an opinion on this forum to explore genuine arguments against the points I have made but seem only to have attracted the opinions of a few old navy, nearing their timers who's termination (from the RN that is) is probably overdue. Your suggestion that I should shut up and put up or lose my future career and income is, I feel, a tad unfair so you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your advice.

Thanks anyway.
 

the_matelot

War Hero
Moderator
#53
Drippy said:
The Matelot,

Yet again, your personal insult lacks any real founded arguments. You assume that everyone is like you and wants to drink and use a mess. How do you know that I'm not an ex alcoholic and can't go into a bar without turning into Barney from the Simpsons. If this was the case, no matter what is done with the mess it will be impracticle for me to use it. Please come back when you have a real grounded argument to make.
You obviously didn't take in what I said in my previous comments.

I'm a watchkeeper. I use the mess for meals and that's about it. I don't get the opportunity to go into the mess as often as I'd like due to watch cycles however I still pay exactly the same mess fees as the guys who are day workers and are in there every evening. Is it fair that I pay exactly the same amount but don't get the opportunity to use it? Probably not but I don't whinge about it, unlike you.

I think the last time I had an alcoholic drink in the mess was the Xmas do. My mess fees include an entertainment subs. I've only been able to go to one mess do in the last 12 months and even then I had to pay extra!

Why don't you go away and formulate an argument without bleating on about your human rights?

Don't you just love JR messdeck lawyers? :roll:

Was it fair that for years, the RN discriminated against singlies who like myself were in long term relationships but chose not to get married by having different levels of charges imposed on them? No, it wasn't. Why should a married person pay less of a food charge than someone who commutes and has bought a house with his or her girlfriend/boyfriend? Are you going to try and tell me that this would stand up in civvy street?

It's just one of those things that happens when you're serving in the forces.

It's called life in a blue suit. If you don't like it, stick your notice in.

If everyone started whining on about how 'this isn't fair, that isn't fair' etc etc, there wouldn't be an RN left!

Old navy? I don't think so-I joined up in 1997.

What you need is a spell in a Tri-service environment to really open your eyes and see just how good we have it in the RN.
 
#54
the_matelot said:
Don't you just love JR messdeck lawyers? :roll:
Admin burden springs to mind ;)

It's interesting though, providing a discreet messing facility for LHs does reinforce status and provides a degree of distinction which can help incentivise those gunning for advancement. OTOH it might serve to distance LHs from ABs, where one of the significant strengths of the rate is that closeness developed in shared messes afloat.

I find it interesting that Drippy chooses to major on the cost, rather than the impact on his/ her position. Clearly from the outburst by CopenhagenCup there is a backstory that those not in Culdrose haven't been exposed to.

It does strike me that a better way to engage with the issue would be to demonstrate some LH-like characteristics and deal with it in a mature manner, rather than whining and raising frivolous complaints. It may be that the mess fees aren't being managed appropriately, I would infer from his/ her comments that the pot is going to the firm running the bar, rather than a comittee running the fund for the benefit of the whole mess.
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
#55
the_matelot said:
Why don't you go away and formulate an argument without bleating on about your human rights? .
This is exactly the point he will never understand, it's far easier to oppose something you don't like with "pseudo law" associated with a selfish position than look at the bigger picture and formulate a cohesive standpoint which takes in all sides of the argument (incidentally that's what real lawyers do and why we pay them so much to do it.) Drippy, you bet your glad I'm not your DO!

For the record I don't oppose your standpoint, just your argument and choice of tact, it comes across as self serving and does not serve your purpose.
 
#56
The matelot,

You sound a little bitter and twisted. I absolutely agree with your argument against discriminatery food charges. Perhaps if you'd and those like you had had the gumption to make a well founded argument earlier then the rules might have been made fairer sooner rather than later.

As for your comment about experiencing the tri-service environment, what makes you think I haven't. In fact I think I probably have more experience, of working with the Army at least, than you.
 

the_matelot

War Hero
Moderator
#57
chieftiff said:
the_matelot said:
Why don't you go away and formulate an argument without bleating on about your human rights? .
This is exactly the point he will never understand, it's far easier to oppose something you don't like with "pseudo law" associated with a selfish position than look at the bigger picture and formulate a cohesive standpoint which takes in all sides of the argument (incidentally that's what real lawyers do and why we pay them so much to do it.) Drippy, you bet your glad I'm not your DO!

For the record I don't oppose your standpoint, just your argument and choice of tact, it comes across as self serving and does not serve your purpose.
I agree! I'd expect a far more mature, reasoned, structured and thought out argument that wheeling out the old 'human rights' point of view. Your argument would get ripped to shreds by a qualified lawyer.

Drippy,

I'm a CT-I guarantee you I've got more JS experience than you have. I have spent more or less the last 5 years working alongside the Army and the RAF. I supervise Army and RAF JR's on a daily basis. Even the baby Toms come across as being more mature than yourself. Before that I was a Junglie wafu for 5 years and did the whole Junglie scene-Bosnia, Norway, etc etc

This isn't a pissing contest about who has more Joint Service experience-it's about your argument being associated with human rights. It is inherently wrong to approach it from that angle and it also goes against the ethos of being an NCO. Bite the bullet ffs-you're a killick on around £24k a year-don't tell me you cannot afford £60 a year for mess fees. Does that mean you're going to turn down your PO's if (and that's a very big If with your current attitude) when you get them because you object to the payment of a mess fee?

If you approached your complaint from a different angle, then maybe I'd be more sympathetic to it. As it stands, if you were in my division and came to me with your problem in its current structure, I would tell you to go away and come back with an argument that would stand up in a representation because it sure as hell wouldn't at the moment. Word it differently and you may be surprised at the level of support you'll get on here...

Me bitter and twisted? Far from it. I fcuking love the RN :D
 
#58
Chieftiff,

Recognition of my rights is my point. My standpoint is my argument and choice of tact. I don't oppose a mess I simply don't want to be a member of or fund one. I really don't care if you like my choice of tact or not. It is never the less valid. You might do well if you listened to what is being said and not the way in which it is being said. I must say that I'm surprised with the level of vigour of opposition that you are presenting for someone who doesn't care about this subject. By the way, lawyers are paid to find and argue the points that support the views of those who pay them. I know this because much of the arguments I have made come from professional legal advice.
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
#59
Drippy said:
By the way, lawyers are paid to find and argue the points that support the views of those who pay them. I know this because much of the arguments I have made come from professional legal advice.
Drippy, I hope you didn't pay for that advice! I am sat here next to a practicing lawyer and ex-matelot who is currently chuckling himself to near death. I haven't laughed so much in a long time at the pure situational comedy factor that you should come out with that comment at this very moment :dwarf: We'll have a couple of beers on you, thanks for that!
 
#60
The matelot,

Fair enough, you beat me in the 'who's had longest in the tri-service environment'. Not by a lot but never the less Well done. I'm interested in hearing your point of view but you've still to make any real argument that invalidates my point on HR or indeed any other points. You clearly don't like me playing the HR card but the wording of the article to which I refer is clear. It's easy to make comments about my maturity or your opinion as to my future promotion prospects but you have to qualify them with reasons, something you've yet to do. You say that if I approach this from a different angle you'd be more sympathetic but no matter how it's worded the arguments are the same.
 

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