Leading Hands and Corporals Mess @ Culdrose

Would you be happy having this forced upon you?


  • Total voters
    187
#21
It does seem a little bit wrong that if a mess isn't well supported because of whatever reasons then we have to pay. If it is well supported then no one has to pay.

Could you imagine a little village pub landlord telling all the villager they have to pay him money each month whether or not they go in there just because he isn't making a profit? Not the best of comparisons, but it is fairly similar!
 
#22
sparkerbuntingnowcis said:
I have heard of nightmare situations when the mob first went to Corsham, as the army ran the mess and there where quite a few run ins with the Prez from the Navy members.
There were, it took a while to wort out.

Amusing though
 
#23
What happens if you are loaned out to another mess for a course or whatever? Do you reclaim that fiver? Do you pay it even if you're absent?
Presumably they'll have some sort of ruling that states that if you go on draft before the thirteenth (or whatever) day of the month, then you will be excused fees that month. If a submariner killick lives in barracks but belongs to a boat...will he still be liable for mess fees?

There should be an 'opt out' option. I once new of a guy who refused to pay his mess fees and so used to eat all his meals at 29 bulkhead. He was allowed in the mess for tea/coffee but that was it.
 
#24
Quote from Culdrose Standing Orders

'Fees are payable on a monthly basis and are to be levied on LH&C who are complemented in, or attached to RNAS Culdrose for a period of 16 days or more, per month.'

It seems that at the end of the day we have the same bar but we have to pay £5 for the privelige because not enough people use it. This is probably because there's not many killicks who live on board down here. Majority have their own/rented house/flat.
 
#25
Being utterly against this in principle I have looked into this a little and believe it to be illegal for the following reasons:

1. There are no regulations in QRRNs saying that junior NCOs have to be members of a mess. It is said that QRRNs are to be updated with regs that closely mirror those of the SR Mess but until they are in there the order to pay is outwith the authority needed for a lawful command.

2. Even if such an amendment is added to QRRN, QRRNs also states that a mess cannot be funded from public funds implying that with respect to the public purse the existence of a mess is irrelevant to the purpose of providing an armed service. For a command to be lawful it must be relevant to the service (BR11).

3. The argument above at paragraph 2 not withstanding, being ordered by virtue of the CTM to pay mess fees imposes a duty upon one to comply with that order. With that in mind and the knowledge that I am entitled to recover all other out of pocket expenses incurred in complying with an order leads me to the inevitable conclusion that the legality of an order to pay mess fees is questionable. Incidentally this would also be true of the SR Mess.

4. The annex to the CTM threatens a £2.50 charge for late or non payment of the £5.00 fee. In accordance with UK Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, charges must reflect true administration costs and cannot be punitive. If the reminder referred to at the reference consists only of a single piece of paper, or even just an e-mail, then administration cost can be no more than £0.005.

5. Although no reference is made in QRRN specifically to regulations governing a LH/CPLs Mess it is presumed that any such inclusion would closely mirror those relating to WO and SRs Messes which state that COs are to take care that messes are conducted so economically that they are within the means of every mess member. This is a regulation that is echoed in a recent fleet directive which asks that the level of charges imposed be ensured reasonable. With respect, one persons perception of reasonable might differ considerably to another’s. A single individual living onboard may have enough disposable income to perceive a given sum as reasonable whilst a married individual might see that same amount as equating to items of clothing for his or her children. It is possible that an individual is approaching or even in a situation of negative equity whereby, by definition, even £0.01 is outside his or her means. In practical terms £5.00 per month is £60.00 per year. I have responsibility for two young children who require 4 pairs of shoes each per year at an approximate cost of £30.00 per pair. I run a car for which ever increasing fuel costs currently average in excess of £100 per month. Constantly growing Gas and Electric bills…etc. It is not my intention to ‘cry the poor tale’ but simply to demonstrate that my priorities lie in areas other than socialising, against my freedom to choose who I socialise with, in a mess which offers me little in the way of comparable value for money. Culdrose’s SR Mess for example offers many more facilities and scope for both my families and my use that the LH/CPLs mess will ever have the geography or ability to tender and yet does so for only £4.00 more per month.

6. The above argument at paragraph 5 should not, in spite of it’s absolute validity, detract from the underlying point of my complaint. Article 8 of The Human Rights Act establishes my right to respect for a private and family life. A UK government website elaborates on this Article of The Act stating that the meaning of a private life is broad in that it generally means ‘the right to choose who I socialise with’. I choose not to socialise in the LH/CPLs Mess with work colleagues as is my right. This right established, I fail to understand why my earnings should be used to subsidise the social lives of the few who have no life outside the RN. It has been argued that the mess is there if I want to use it in justification of the imposition of the mess fee. This view is contrary to every other aspect of free life bar taxes whereby the facilities are there if I wish to use and pay for them.
 

the_matelot

War Hero
Moderator
#26
sparkerbuntingnowcis said:
I have heard of nightmare situations when the mob first went to Corsham, as the army ran the mess and there where quite a few run ins with the Prez from the Navy members. I think they take it in turns as it's now tri-service of mess prez.
1
No they don't-it's an Army appointment. The Unit Sergeant Major (WO1) is the Mess pres by default.
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
#27
Drippy said:
Being utterly against this in principle I have looked into this a little and believe it to be illegal for the following reasons: blah blah blah blah blah, bleat bleat bleat etc etc
Lower deck lawyers, don't you love them! regardless of the "legal standing" of this mess, what is the principle by which you oppose it?

I know nothing of this and to be honest don't much care, however I suspect the idea has come about so that Leading Hands who hold the worst job in the RN are treated like adults. In order for any social club to work it needs a reasonable cash flow, the result of that should be a useful facility where you can socialise with your mates, have family socials etc much like the SR mess.

Although I don't attend the SR Mess much I do partake of the Summer and Christmas Balls, as others have mentioned a joint Service mess is considerably more expensive than anything you are likely to find in the RN. Nevertheless I am happy to pay my fees just so I can pop in when I want for a very very cheap beer or coffee or just to read the paper, we get a good old knees up a couple of times a year too.

Your opposition to a fee of a fiver is to say the least miserly, if you are genuinely that hard up perhaps you should be proposing a lower fee in favour of alternative social activity, your "legal" opposition just reads like someone dripping for the sake of it DRIPPY. The Mess is the mess because everyone is a member, however little or much they attend, perhaps the fee of a fiver might encourage you to get some use of the facility, join the committee perhaps and have some constructive influence........... or you could just carry on dripping in that most annoying way of the lower deck lawyer!
 
#28
I think you've missed my point chieftiff. Enough case law exists to establish 'as fact' that mess funds are charities. Read a dictionary, it defines a charity as 'giving voluntarily to those in need', the important word there being voluntarily. You're right, £5.00 will not break my bank. However, whilst you obviously don't mind being told where and when to spend your money, I do. It is an abuse of my right of freedom to choose. This isn't dripping, nor is it lower deck lawyering, it's being treated like an adult. Grown ups get to choose. Children are told what they can and can't spend money on. Grown ups get to choose which charities are worthy enough causes to recieve their money and the social lives of the minority who lack a life outside of Culdrose just isn't worthy of my attention. I do not want to join the committee. I, like 85% of the others who have contributed to this forum do not want to be a member of mess. To partake in the committee is to justify it. I do not begrudge anyone a mess just don't tell me I have to fund it or spend my time in it.
 
#29
As a Senior Rate, there is no option, but why should a Leading Hand Have a seperate bar? I can remember being on a RAF Base that had a Corporals Bar, Used only by Corporals who had a high opinion of themselves, as Leading Hands are by far outnumbered by their mates who would use such a facility?

 
#30
after a long stint in hms collingwood where i had a lot to do with the running of the LH/CPL's mess i cant see the need to charge mess fees. we by papers and tea boat stores just to use money in the account. we have just subsudised the very first and very sucsessful leading hands mess dinner on the Victory why cant the top leave us to run or own mess or arre they to scared we may make it work with out them
 
#31
You will find Drippy that the "freedom to choose" you so crave is available in civvy street, however in the armed forces most people except that we are not civilians and do not have the freedom of choice that they have.Your interest in your rights under the human rights act is somewhat unhealthy and also flawed as we are exempt from most of it under the clause wherever practicable which basically means we will do our best to comply but we don't have to, which is why we dont have to comply with the european working week directive.We all like a drip mate and instead of battling the system try and work within it and improve it.You state you should not have to pay it and it is illegal, ok then shut all the messes down cos you don't want to pay! Or alternatively try and get actively involved in the mess make it the place you want to spend your time and arrange stuff for the kids etc.
What you haven't looked at is the fact that if they do make payment mandatory you can claim that back of the tax man in the full as a deductable (up to £140 a year without being audited) so basically pay your £5 a month and claim £140 back of the tax man each year for hair cuts/mess bills/dry cleaning.
Most of all mate try not to look at what is unfair/bad in life it will consume you, always try to find the good bits in life and always realise that there are so many people much worse of than you and would beg to have your minor problems.Smile and b happy snorky.
 
#33
higthepig said:
............, Used only by Corporals .....?


I worked with exRAF types in Saudi, and my impression is that the majority of the RAF junior ranks were that they were mostly two-stripers because of the technical requirement of their trades, somewhat similar to Artificers.

An old 3 badger I knew always said that the RN rates were a half more senior than the equiv in the RAF/Army --- caused some disagreement amongst the others :thumright: :lol: .

I remember this idea (LH Mess) being brought up in Pembroke, when they sent WRNS officers about asking for comments on Jennies being drafted to ships.

:)
 

jungle_jim

Lantern Swinger
#34
I can see where you are coming from, but many establishments will be introducing new LH/CPLs mess, will CD be the only mess to charge this fee, i dont think so. also whats the £5 going to be used for?????

the old arguments alsways come out of this type of subect like VL and CD SR mess, many live ashore and several miles away from the establishment and never get the use of the mess as much as a liver in, this argument goes around and around but always ends, its your mess, it is there for you to use it any time so you will pay your mess fees. i can see that argument being used here.

challenge your committe as to what where and how these fees intend to be used, and how is it policed ensuring all LH/CPLs pay??????????

will you be having functions like dinners, couples nights/dinners and kids Xmas parties, news papers in the mess because thats what these fees pay for and subside (as the Xmas party thing you will then get argumnets from those who do not have children or whos children cannot attend) but the answer will always come back its your mess you can use it you need to pay for it.
 
#35
Why not get as many livers out to attend the next mess meeting. Ask what the £5.00 mess fees are paying for. If it's for things you disagree with then propose that these things are stopped. If enough members feel teh same way then things will change. Navy messes tend to be run democratically unlike Army and Airforce messes.
 

jungle_jim

Lantern Swinger
#36
whitemouse said:
higthepig said:
............, Used only by Corporals .....?


I worked with exRAF types in Saudi, and my impression is that the majority of the RAF junior ranks were that they were mostly two-stripers because of the technical requirement of their trades, somewhat similar to Artificers.

An old 3 badger I knew always said that the RN rates were a half more senior than the equiv in the RAF/Army --- caused some disagreement amongst the others :thumright: :lol: .

I remember this idea (LH Mess) being brought up in Pembroke, when they sent WRNS officers about asking for comments on Jennies being drafted to ships.

:)
the LH was always junior to the CPL of the RM, Armyand RAF which is why there was never a requirment for a seperate mess before, now LH have much more responsibility of those from years gone by and even have the need to conduct duties as part of the divisional system, so nowadays there rank needs perks (and why not) but i do not know if their status has risen to bring them in line with the rest.

this argument used to always happen when the crabs came on board, so we used to give their CPL the responsibility of LHOM, they soon stopped gobbin off about it then
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
#37
jungle_jim said:
but i do not know if their status has risen to bring them in line with the rest.
Yes they have, all 3 services' Queens Regulations have now been amended to show L/H as equivelant to Cpl as of 2005.
 
#38
chieftiff said:
jungle_jim said:
but i do not know if their status has risen to bring them in line with the rest.
Yes they have, all 3 services' Queens Regulations have now been amended to show L/H as equivelant to Cpl as of 2005.
Oi Chief, that RDP calendar is almost as bad as the dabbers up the duff one :pukel:
 

buffer01

Lantern Swinger
#39
Thinking laterally, couldn't you just say that your a member of VL's mess? The booties seem to get away with it in the S/R mess by saying their members of CTC's mess. Must be a cheaper mess?
 

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