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Lack of respect these days

dondon said:
HARRY_MASKERS said:
HMS Excellent, Saturday 11 November 1100, parade ground-Royal drilling, pongo's drilling, pipe over tannoy, Royal stood to attention by DL, followed by pongo's.

2 minutes slience by those men (and I would guess every other man/woman in/out of uniform on that island)

On the top field screaming and shouting of spectators playing/watching football on a military ground in a naval establishment.

More than disrespectful on that day and unforgivable that everyone entering was not made aware that the two minutes WOULD be observed by everyone entering those gates.

Outside in a town centre people used to stand silent, few people do so now, that (to their shame) it's their choice, when they tread on naval turf they play by our rules or they don't come aboard.

We do it out of respect, we lead by example but if an official pipe (in naval speak a warning of an order) is just disregarded by all and sundry what bloody hope is there?

Listen in -in the Officers Mess (overlooking those playing fields), listen in the Jossman in the Guardroom and the pongo guard force, why did you not ensure that on the 11 month on the 11th day at the 11 hour at HMS Excellent two minutes silence was observed by all?

Bloody disgrace.


Totaly agree mate , fxxxxxxxxxxg disgrace ,

Ditto!

We observe the two minutes silence at work when it falls during the working week. In fact several of us usually go outside the building and face the Cenotaph. Where I live most people observed it except the chavs, various mothers with pushchairs and a few others. An icy stare can also be quite effective at silencing the noisy... sometimes.
 

Sea_Dart

Newbie
Over 500 on our remembrance day parade in Brentwood on Sunday. Many were youngsters from various cadet units including 15 from our Sea Cadet unit. Also veterans, police, RNA, TA and British Legion Youth Band (who were excellent). There was several hundred of the public lining the streets including families with young kids who were both excited to see people in uniforms marching and also respectful during the silence. Lots of applause as the parade marched past & a few kids seemed quite excited to see people in Naval uniform. After the parade I took my 10 year old (who is a cadet) to lay a poppy wreath on his granfather's grave who was in the RAF in WW2. There is stlll a lot of good kids out there & respect from the public but you will always get the morons who don't have any sense of loyalty or duty!
 

stirling2

Banned
From my local rag today

A WAR veteran who stormed the beaches of France on D-Day has described York's Remembrance Parade as "a shambles".

Ken Cooke, 81, a member of the city's Normandy Veterans Association, said the annual event was now an "insult to veterans" who were forced to march towards the back of the parade.

Mr Cooke, of Newland Park Drive, York, said veterans were fed up of joining near the rear of the parade when it reached them in St Helen's Square, saying they should march at the front behind the band.

He said: "We are always at the back end. We are always after everybody else. One of our chaps said: It is Remembrance Day, it is the veterans' day, so why don't we march behind the band.' "I think we should be given priority. It is our day.

continued...
"I can't understand why we are not."

He added: "I nearly walked off this year when we were waiting. We all stand to attention then we watch the band go past, then the rest of them, and we feel left behind."

He also criticised the choice of the Shepherd's Brass Band on this year's parade, saying only a military band was fitting.

He said: "We must have a military band on a military occasion. They thought it was a disgrace to have a brass band leading the parade.


FLASHBACK: The Remembrance Day Parade, led by Shepherd's Brass Band, passes over Lendal Bridge on its way to the Memorial Gardens.
Buy this photo
"They are a good band but their place is not at the front of a military parade."

Mr Cooke fought with the 7th battalion of the Green Howards regiment and was wounded in an explosion about a month after landing in Normandy aged just 18.

He spent six months recovering in a hospital in Aberdeen and later returned to the front line to battle across the Rhine.

But he said he was saddened by the decline in the annual commemoration, saying: "It has deteriorated from the way it used to be."

He said: "We had a meeting and quite a few veterans mentioned the parade.

"They said it was a shambles."

He added: "In another five years I do not think it will happen.

"But somebody has got to remember us and it is up to us to keep on remembering those who did not come back.

"They need to get something organised so that we can have a really good parade."

Major Chad Fowler, garrison station officer at York Barracks, who organised the event, said: "The organisation of the Remembrance Day parade this year was the same as last and previous years.

"We value the Royal British Legion and the veterans' associations on parade and provide them with the due respect that they are entitled to."

He said: "Due to the reorganisation of the army there are not as many bands now in the north of England and we were unfortunate not to be allocated a military band for this year."

Major Fowler said he was impressed by the music the brass band played and said the army had organised a military band for the Festival of Remembrance a week earlier.

10:29am today
 

nutty_bag

War Hero
Always_a_Civvy said:
Passed-over_Loggie said:
How's this for respect lads? http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006530141,00.html

PS

Bugger! just noticed that Nutty Bag has posted this elsewhere.

He has indeed! You'd better double round the virtual parade ground a couple of times in pennance! :wink:

Indeed i did!! A fcuking disgrace. it just dawned on me that he was indeed wearing a lid of the redcaps which adds insult to injury!! What hurts even more was that he was paid £4000 to do it and he sounded like a psyche patient from the local funny farm!!
 

Jimmy_Green

War Hero
Lack Of Respect.

We are all aware of the yob culture, the binge drinking problems in our towns and cities and the chav/yoof bad attitude we are suffering daily.
The prisons are full and ASBOs are seen as a badge of honour.
A lot of this is down to the "you can't touch me, I know my rights" generation. And thanks to woolly minded liberals, they ARE right. Half the time we can't touch them.
We now need to change the culture in this country so that individual rights come second to the the rights of the majority of society.

Many people have said that it is up to us to stand up for ourselves and confront the yobs. Great idea except that when you do you stand a chance of becoming a victim yourself by being attacked (beaten up/stabbed/shot) or your car trashed, windows stoned etc. If you dare to lay a hand on them chances are it will be you that will end up in the dock.

BRING BACK NATIONAL SERVICE - How often do we hear that? Do we really want these scum in a professional armed service?

The costs of crime to the country are enormous but the police are as underfunded as we are. The armed forces, ignoring their core role of going to war and killing Johnny foreigner, are often used in support of civil authorities in times of crisis (I.E. fire service strikes, the foot & mouth problem, aiding in searches for missing kids etc etc)

My solution. We need a high visibility for the forces in our communities and thousands more police on the streets. I believe that we should raise the standards required to join our professional uniformed services, increase the salaries by large amounts to encourage people to take it up as a career and massively increase the kudos of the services & police so that people actually DESIRE to join as a first career choice rather than seeing it as something to do instead of the dole. We need to reclaim the hero status attributed to footballers, DJs, gangsta rap artists and ASBO holders and give it back to people in uniform.

Sure, this is all going to cost money but so does crime, so does insurance claims when your car gets stolen and burned out, cleaning up graffiti, hospital bills for drunken and drugged yobs, keeping an old lady in intensive care because she got pushed down the stairs by someone ransacking her house. I know where I would rather see my taxes being spent.

I believe in the carrot and stick approach. The carrot being the desirability to wear a professional uniform and being paid well for it, and the stick being the stocks and the birch and a drab prison cell with no TV or radio, books or magazines etc.

The government can do this, it just needs the will and the media can help by positively promoting the police and the forces instead of running bad news stories.
 

nutty_bag

War Hero
Messer Green
My opinion on this argument can be found on various threads throughout this site so i wont bore you with it at this time. I would say however that the punishment should fit the crime and the said criminal individual made to face the victim (within reason obviously. Rape etc) and be made to squirm!! I dont think that there is a political party out there at this time that has the clout to actually stand up to the judicial process and say "Bollocks to human rights, this is a moral issue" having said that though there are also a number of young people out there that are excellent citizens. Unfortunately these good people are left by the sidelines with the tossers givens all of the "Support"
 

Clouseau

Banned
Another factor we have missed in this thread is the need for the military to be representative of the society it serves.

The lack of respect may well stem from a lack of understanding and/or a complete alienation from the military (past and present)

Just a thought. I'm off on weekend to do far better things than fanny around on the web.

Catch you all later.
 

Jimmy_Green

War Hero
nutty_bag said:
Messer Green
My opinion on this argument can be found on various threads throughout this site so i wont bore you with it at this time. I would say however that the punishment should fit the crime and the said criminal individual made to face the victim (within reason obviously. Rape etc) and be made to squirm!! I dont think that there is a political party out there at this time that has the clout to actually stand up to the judicial process and say "Bollocks to human rights, this is a moral issue" having said that though there are also a number of young people out there that are excellent citizens. Unfortunately these good people are left by the sidelines with the tossers givens all of the "Support"

NB

I have seen some of your opinions on previous threads but I'm not going to go back to refresh my memory just now. I too have made my opinion known previously.

I am not suggesting that we say "bollocks" to individual human rights, just that the rights of the majority must come first.
I agree that politicians find it hard to stand up to the judiciary but let's not forget that they, the judiciary, the police and the politicians are there to serve us. They are there for the benefit of society not themselves and it is up to us to ensure that that is what they do.

The punishment must fit the crime. Yep, fully agree. I also believe that if someone gets sent down for say, 10 years then it's ten years before he/she comes out again. Not all this time off for good behaviour crap. if your behaviour is not good, then time gets added to the sentence.

Again, I agree with you when you say there are a number of young people that are excellent citizens. There are thousands of kids, teenagers and young adults who do nothing wrong but get tarred with the same brush as those that do.

However, the point of the thread is the lack of respect today and while it is usually aimed at youngsters that is not solely the case.
What I offered was a solution to changing this attitude. It is not the only solution and it won't work on its own and it won't work overnight.

30 years ago not many people thought drink driving was a problem. That has totally changed. 50 years ago people were proud to be in uniform and uniforms were respected. We need to start changing attitudes so that antisocial and yobbish behaviour (both by youngsters and adults) becomes unacceptable rather than the norm that it has now become. What I would like to see is an attitude where the elderly are respected for what they have done during their lives for the country and also the knowledge and experience they have to pass on. I would like to see respect given to the miltary and civil authorities for the way they serve the country and for people to aspire to that.

I think social responsibility should be taught in schools and the opportunity given for kids to put such ideas into practice, and rewarded when they do.

It will be a long haul to bring back back pride and respect for ones community and country but I believe that we should try.
 
Jimmy_Green said:
nutty_bag said:
Messer Green
My opinion on this argument can be found on various threads throughout this site so i wont bore you with it at this time. I would say however that the punishment should fit the crime and the said criminal individual made to face the victim (within reason obviously. Rape etc) and be made to squirm!! I dont think that there is a political party out there at this time that has the clout to actually stand up to the judicial process and say "Bollocks to human rights, this is a moral issue" having said that though there are also a number of young people out there that are excellent citizens. Unfortunately these good people are left by the sidelines with the tossers givens all of the "Support"

NB

I have seen some of your opinions on previous threads but I'm not going to go back to refresh my memory just now. I too have made my opinion known previously.

I am not suggesting that we say "bollocks" to individual human rights, just that the rights of the majority must come first.
I agree that politicians find it hard to stand up to the judiciary but let's not forget that they, the judiciary, the police and the politicians are there to serve us. They are there for the benefit of society not themselves and it is up to us to ensure that that is what they do.

The punishment must fit the crime. Yep, fully agree. I also believe that if someone gets sent down for say, 10 years then it's ten years before he/she comes out again. Not all this time off for good behaviour crap. if your behaviour is not good, then time gets added to the sentence.

Again, I agree with you when you say there are a number of young people that are excellent citizens. There are thousands of kids, teenagers and young adults who do nothing wrong but get tarred with the same brush as those that do.

However, the point of the thread is the lack of respect today and while it is usually aimed at youngsters that is not solely the case.
What I offered was a solution to changing this attitude. It is not the only solution and it won't work on its own and it won't work overnight.

30 years ago not many people thought drink driving was a problem. That has totally changed. 50 years ago people were proud to be in uniform and uniforms were respected. We need to start changing attitudes so that antisocial and yobbish behaviour (both by youngsters and adults) becomes unacceptable rather than the norm that it has now become. What I would like to see is an attitude where the elderly are respected for what they have done during their lives for the country and also the knowledge and experience they have to pass on. I would like to see respect given to the miltary and civil authorities for the way they serve the country and for people to aspire to that.

I think social responsibility should be taught in schools and the opportunity given for kids to put such ideas into practice, and rewarded when they do.

It will be a long haul to bring back back pride and respect for ones community and country but I believe that we should try.

Jimmy, before you say anything else I would suggest you take the time to read Geoff Pearson's very readable and well researched, historical look into youth behaviour and attitudes towards authority, including the police, in his book Hooligan: A History of Respectable Fears. You will notice some remarkably interesting parallels throughout history, even, yes even, 30 years ago. :roll: :lol:

Social responsibility is something that needs to be taught by responsible parents at home. If prospective parents are unsuitable and are unwilling to learn how to bring up any children they might have properly, then perhaps they should not be allowed to reproduce - to break the cycle of irresponsibility. This is after all what the liberal Swedes did until the late 1970s. Liberal Denmark did similar things from 1924 until the 1960s. The German eugenics programme (a related topic) began under the liberal Weimar Constitution. By constrast, traditionally conservative Britain resisted such things. If you have children - take responsibility for them! should be the big message government should send out in schools and in public - using a reward, training and punishment approach, as appropriate.

Your suggestion that the moral good should take precidence over individual human rights is more problematic. To begin with the notion of the moral good is derived from natural law principles, which are themselves problematic. For example the communitarian focus upon the rights of the community over the individual accord the individual an object status rather than recognition of personhood as being good in itself. In practical terms this can lead to a kind of moral authoritarianism which is both prescriptive and exclusive. Human rights at this level operates on a particularistic basis, with the moral arbiters determining who is entitled to what rights and who is to be denied those rights, or to be allocated inferior or subordinate rights. In effect this treats some people as lesser beings than others. That is not to say that existing human rights law is perfect, nor that it does not operate in practice in a particularistic manner. It is simply to say that the idealist approach is never as simple as it appears. Communitarianism incidentally is the philosophical idea that has influenced both Blair and is known to influence Brown. So beware before advocating something similar.
 

Jimmy_Green

War Hero
Steve,

If I get the chance I will look up the book you suggest.

The term 'moral good' was never made by me.

Unfortunately I am not blessed with the eloquence that you are so capable of so I will keep my language simple.

I simply stated that the rights of the majority must come before the rights of the individual.
To me a community is the people that live in a particular area and I believe they have the right to live in peace without becoming the victims of yobbish behaviour and their rights are the ones that take precedence over those of the yobs that wish to disrupt them (whatever age group they belong to)

As you say, parents should take responsibility for their offspring but a lot of the time the parents can't even take responsibility for themselves.

The points you made seem to be a little deep but basically we are bemoaning a lack of RESPECT in society and I would be interested in what ideas others have that would bring about a change in this attitude.
 
Jimmy_Green said:
Steve,

If I get the chance I will look up the book you suggest.

The term 'moral good' was never made by me.

Unfortunately I am not blessed with the eloquence that you are so capable of so I will keep my language simple.

I simply stated that the rights of the majority must come before the rights of the individual.
To me a community is the people that live in a particular area and I believe they have the right to live in peace without becoming the victims of yobbish behaviour and their rights are the ones that take precedence over those of the yobs that wish to disrupt them (whatever age group they belong to)

As you say, parents should take responsibility for their offspring but a lot of the time the parents can't even take responsibility for themselves.

The points you made seem to be a little deep but basically we are bemoaning a lack of RESPECT in society and I would be interested in what ideas others have that would bring about a change in this attitude.

Jimmy, the term 'moral good' encapsulates the idea you were describing. I agree that yobs ought to be held to account. Sadly there is a lazy tendency to view rights and duties towards others as opposites rather than correlatives: in order for A to enjoy the right to X (or to abstain from X), B must abstain from interfering with A's liberty to do X. These days there is a tendency to see rights as an entitlement not a priviledge: that is to see rights as a consequence of one's citizenship rather than as a consequence of one's forbearance and toleration of the rights of others. This is perfectly demonstrated every time you hear religious fundamentalists carp on about their right to discriminate on grounds of their beliefs whilst complaining about the same human rights culture when it affords the 'other' rights which they contest. :x

It is not just yobs - the bad example has already been set by an selfish adult world (promoted vigourously under Thatcher) that puts the primacy of the individual above that of the greater (moral) good. Friedman, Nozick and Kierkegård have much to answer for! :evil:
 

Jimmy_Green

War Hero
AAC, in this post I have tried to avoid politics and religion. You assert that selfish adults were promoted under Thatcher. I don't believe that she or her party were particularly responsible for selfishness. I think we are all capable of that, whichever part of the political spectrum one comes from. After all, we all tend to want to look after ourselves, our families and friends before we start worrying about others. I think that's just part of human nature.

Earlier you mentioned that the chavs ignored the two minutes silence. That it shows a lack of respect is true, but was it deliberately done to be disrespectful or was it out of general ignorance?
Maybe the chavs are fed up that every time they turn a corner there's somebody shoving a collection tin under their nose for some charity or other and poppy day is just another charity that they want to ignore. And besides, it's always old men in blazers and medals collecting for something that happened years ago and isn't relevant anymore.
We know it is relevant. Rememberence Day is about more than what happened in WWI & WWII, it's also about what is happening now.

I have been in Aus just recently, and whilst touring drove through a small town in Northern Tasmania. I noticed a group of people standing around outside their local RSL, looked at the time, I noticed it was approaching 1100 (11th of the 11th), so I stopped and joined them at their memorial in silence for a short time, before going on my way. It doesn't take much effort to spare a thought.
 
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