Joining up - ethics and other questions

Discussion in 'Joining Up - Royal Navy Recruiting' started by trufflehunter, Jan 8, 2007.

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  1. Hi all,

    I'm an upper 6th student, giving a serious look at joining the andrew as either a warfare officer (with a view to PWO and command) or a pilot. However i've got a few concerns that i'd appreciate your insight and/or advice on. I'll try to put them in order of importance to me.

    1) I'm not a supporter of the war in Iraq, but i realise that this is a job where you go and do what you're ordered to, like it or not. I have faith in our democratic system to eventually represent the wishes of the people and so act in their best interests, and i believe that it is something worth defending, and that i have a duty to do so. In my mind this justifies fighting despite your personal view, but i still have my doubts. How do you deal with having to fight a war you might not agree with?

    2) The recruiters are putting me under a lot of pressure to join as a pilot, ditching university and joining immediately. They promise a correspondance degree from the Open University, and a hefty cash bonus for joining straight away, however i'm aiming at a much more prestigious degree if i go to Uni and join as a warfare officer, and so with any luck a better job when i eventually get out. Also there's the worry that they might ditch the new carriers or the yanks might cut JSF. What do you advise?

    3) Having have a read around, it seems that the navy's in a real decline, what with the war canoes being mothballed and promotion suspensions. Can you see a relatively able young man making a career in the navy, or am i likely to end up out again in 9 or 10 years time, and having to start on the job ladder again?

    Many thanks, i'm looking forward to your replies

    ps. good job on the site, it's been a great resource to help me see what i'm getting myself into

    pps...first post, feels good
  2. 1. Its a profession, you're a professional. Nuff said.
    2. Finish your degree unless you are ancient and time is against you.
    3. No one can prophesy what the current or a future government will do, but I would suggest there are very few "dead cert" careers these days. Also the skills and training you gain in the mob will mean as and when you decide to move on you will not have to "start on the job ladder again".
  3. im also in the kind of same position
    im in lower 6th at the moment, but joining the RN is what ive wanted to do since i was like 13.
    Im seriously considering Air Traffic Control, Pilot or Warfare Officer, but then again i think that there are alot of pro's to joining as a Warfare rating.
    But im not too keen on going to uni
    hmmm im going to have to pop back down to my local AFCO

  4. thanks phil, much appreciated. as for getting out, i guess you're right, i know of a few who've gotten out and moved on really well. Good luck to you manc. as for uni, of course it's your own choice, but i reckon they'll be good years, and raise your income afterwards. Of course there's the debt to consider, but i'm hoping it shouldn't be too bad with the navy's help.
  5. dont worry about the navy decline too much

    1) theres been so much coverage the gov has to do something about the state of our forces.

    2) we'll get ourselves into another conflict soon enough, and thats a fair way to get some more funding.

    also, the forces are unlikely to start chucking people out that quick. sods law says as soon as the gov start downsizing the navy, they'll need it.

    regarding morality of it all, as a solider you are not responsible for the war. the gov fights the war. they deal with wether its right or wrong. people dont join the forces because they think they should kill everybody they can, they join because of the life it offers. regardless of whether you physically fight in it or not, it will happen. so you might as well if it offers you a life you want.
  6. Follow your heart! your dreams are always gonna be there!

    there is a lot of "talk" of restructuring in the press. But, when did a sane person ever listen to the press?

    Do your degree. When the dust settles if you still want in, you can ditch the degree then.

    don't allow anyone to lead you somewhere you don't wanna go unless shes extremely pretty....

    good luck

  7. Trufflehunter,

    for me Q1 doesn't arise. Ultimately you are serving, ready to kill and ready to die to protect your country, right or wrong. This is different from the question of an individual being ordered to commit an illegal act of course. Perhaps niavely I have always thought if the govt of the day were that wrong either the CinC (HM Queen) or public pressure would stop 'em.

    Re uni - if you can get the RN to pay/sponsor you that is the way to go. If you are going to end up owing 15-20K going independently I would join up first, save some money and then see if you really want to go to uni in a couple of years. A degree is vastly overrated and as a Waafu you will have spare time to be able to progress a degree by correspondence and then there is nothing to stop you getting the important degree ( a Masters) at a reputable uni.

    Re Q3, perhaps things have turned full circle but I thought the younger generations didnt think about long term careers anymore? If the RN is prepared to teach you to fly fast jets/ helos for free there are skills there I imagine that are transferable in later life and I personally would jump at it.
  8. Id go for Pilot,its a good Qualifacation to have !
  9. maybe i should be asking in the FAA section, but do any of you know how much a pilot could expect to be deployed, and whether it differs if you fly whirlybirds or jets?
  10. Think very long term TruffleHunter and Manc.........(too long to remember)

    I'm not sure what qualifications you would get as a PWO that may assist you in civvy street when you retire/leave, however; If you qualify as a pilot, especially as a helicopter pilot, there is a massive call for ex military pilots outside (Police / HEMS / Rigs etc) as they value the wealth of experience and flying hours. Police/HEMS only employ ex-forces pilots due to experience in low-level flying. And it's good money.

    I'm sure the PWO gets lots of management qualifications as well - bottom line is what's going to provide you with most fun every day ???

    Whatever you decide - good luck - you'll hopefully go on to enjoy yourself either way.
  11. Hi and welcome!

    Firstly, finish your education off, the RN has a way of promosing the world, until you sign that line then comes the excuses of why you can't do something for a few months.

    As for the war aspect, you'll find alot of serving members don't actually agree with what is happening but they don't have a say. You signed the line, you do the job.
  12. That goes for a lot of things in the Armed Forces as a whole.
    Lots of forces personnel didn't vote for this government but that makes no difference.
    Your "job" is non political and not for discussion. You just do it, you don't ask the ethics of it (unless its obviously an unlawful order you've been given). The armed forces are NOT a democracy, quite rightly so, you are there to apply British Policy as told, whatever that may be.
  13. I retired some 30 years ago as a Seaman officer (what they had before they went trendy and warfare) and I haven't been unemployed for a dfay yet, and inthose days we had no paper qualifications what so ever.

    Good luck
  14. I was just thinking, with this new TV Advert out, isnt there going to be a big influx of people wanting to be Helicopter Pilots?
  15. In respect of the degree thingy, I studied to be a solicitor whilst working. It has without doubt been the hardest thing I have ever had to do.

    I have had no life, no time, and sometimes no will to live.

    Do it properly at Uni whilst you have the chance.
  16. Thanks guys. I'm quite young (i'll finish 6th form at 17 1/2) so i think the plan is to get on with Uni (War studies at King's London with any luck), doing URNU and hopefully getting some funding while there, and on to BRNC after that, assuming they'll have me
  17. KCL is a good university, I'm not convinced that War Studies is entirely practical as a fallback but each to their own.

    As to the ethical issue, you sign up to executing the intent of the crown and unless you're given an illegal order then you just get on with it. Up to you how you rationalise it. Personally I profoundly disagree with a certain recent conflict but I just got on with my job because I knew that if I didn't then the guys and girls in the front line (I was in a combat support job at the time) wouldn't get the support they needed. Despite being in CS my job wouldn't have been filled and we were already underborne. Oh, and I have no faith in our democratic system, the politicians always win!

    Personally I'd recommend finishing your education, yes aviation is quite a good trade to be in and the opportunities after you leave are good, but it really depends what motivates you. If you're thinking of reading war studies then I have a feeling that you'd be better employed later in a battlestaff type role so thinking about early PWO course, PWO(C) and then into big boys warfare.

    And lastly, don't know. The Navy is going to the dogs, but it was always thus. There is some backstory to the level of press interest at the moment, but I won't go into the politics of it. The country needs the RN, we might have to change shape, but there is still a requirement, so there is a future career opportunity.
  18. Mate,

    You have to finish your education. There is v little chance of doing a degree in the RN, especially as a Warfare Officer or pilot. Do a degree, join up as a Warfare Officer! At least that way, you have more of an option to progress - promotion as a pilot is far slower than a Warfare Officer!! With respect to promotion freezes, that's rubbish - I've heard it from the horses mouth. Promotions are being slowed down slightly. The area it affects the most is the Cdr and above (the guys that cost the big bucks!) and you've got a heck of a long time before get anywhere near that level!!!!

    As much as the ACLOs can advise you, a lot of them are so far out of the loop they don't exactly know what the latest is!! Also, they have recruitment targets etc to meet, so ......... make your own mind up!!!
  19. Thanks guys, i think warfare was the direction i was headed in anyway, particulary given that both flying and advancement seem to peter out above a 2 1/2 as a pilot. As for the war studies degree i was considering the UN, either if i don't get into the andrew, or as an option afterwards; the degree is full of international relations and theory of peacekeeping etc.

    I agree with you on the ACLOs pinky, most of the time my liason has been a gapped, wet behind the ears 2 striper who knows less about it than i do, so i'm taking their advice with a pinch of salt

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