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Islamic Civilization

Always_a_Civvy said:
The alternative is paedophiles going underground. If the Police know of their whereabouts potential victims are much safer that were offenders to disappear - the result of a local community knowing their whereabouts... and hounding them out of the area. This is not a solution to a complex problem. Nor is disproportionate sentencing because of the impact it has upon juries' verdicts and their likelihood to believe victims.

Oh you go ahead girl, take an EXAMPLE totally out of context, and focus on it to make your own point :twisted:
 
dhoby_bucket said:
I hate to ask Nutty but, exactly how did you stumble across this article???

Whist flying to Oz on a Emirates Airline plane, after a stop in Dubai various English language newspapers were hand out by the cabin staff i won a copy of the Khaleej Times. I was so impressed with its IMHO factual and non partisan approach to world news I have read it ever since on the internet. Local news is aimed at being nice to the local Establishment.

Daily I look at

BBC News (have a lot of respect for the World Service)
The Times of London (friend works their but Telegrapha is OK)
Kaleej Time (as described)
Sydney Morning Herald (A habit I picked up in Oz)
Mosnews (Russian found on the internet)
News Group of Spain's National Papers(tops stories in English)

This gives me a look at what other countries think of the same news items I read in UK papers or TV. Yes I have tried USA papers but find then parochial and nationalistic and inward looking and given up on them.

That OK with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nutty


When you retire you have time to do these thiungs
 
Nutty said:
dhoby_bucket said:
I hate to ask Nutty but, exactly how did you stumble across this article???

Whist flying to Oz on a Emirates Airline plane, after a stop in Dubai various English language newspapers were hand out by the cabin staff i won a copy of the Khaleej Times. I was so impressed with its IMHO factual and non partisan approach to world news I have read it ever since on the internet. Local news is aimed at being nice to the local Establishment.

Daily I look at

BBC News (have a lot of respect for the World Service)
The Times of London (friend works their but Telegrapha is OK)
Kaleej Time (as described)
Sydney Morning Herald (A habit I picked up in Oz)
Mosnews (Russian found on the internet)
News Group of Spain's National Papers(tops stories in English)

This gives me a look at what other countries think of the same news items I read in UK papers or TV. Yes I have tried USA papers but find then parochial and nationalistic and inward looking and given up on them.

That OK with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nutty


When you retire you have time to do these thiungs

You get more 'news' on the overnoght synopsis on the submarine broadcast than you get in the typical US paper.
 

mophead

Lantern Swinger
And this is the "civilisation" that we are fighting and dying to protect ???????
Is it worth it?I think not
 
Chockheads_WM said:
"Islamic Civilization"

A contradiction in terms!

I refer you to my post above re the title of this thread. Not a good choice IMHO Nutty. I think it is interesting that in many eyes (mine certainly) the Saudi way of life and its illegitimate child my OBL pose a much greater threat to the world in general than does Iran yet the Saudis due to wealth and military ties have made themselves indispensible to the West while Iran is demonised.

I think we must not forget that most Muslims are just like the rest of us and are as horrified by all this extremism as 'we' are but their voice isn't so strongly heard. Or maybe we just don't listen because as in all news reporting the sensational makes better headlines. So its all actually the fault of the flaming journos again!!!
 
Chockheads_WM said:
"Islamic Civilization"

A contradiction in terms!

On the contrary. Which civilization first made significant discoveries in astronomy? Who invented our numerals? Which civilisation first made significant strides in science? Yes that's right: Islam! Then they retreated from inquiry and became introverted. However that has not always been so and it does not follow that it will remain so. There are many voices in Muslim states today calling for change - it just happens that the Western media couldn't be bothered to report it because it doesn't sell copy in the same way as terrorism and religious hatred do. We see the same with Christianity in Britain - the media create an impression of a Right-Wing, increasingly fundimentalist evangelical Christianity here: how representative is that?

golden_rivet said:
I think we must not forget that most Muslims are just like the rest of us and are as horrified by all this extremism as 'we' are but their voice isn't so strongly heard. Or maybe we just don't listen because as in all news reporting the sensational makes better headlines. So its all actually the fault of the flaming journos again!!!

BZ G_R!
 
Always_a_Civvy said:
Chockheads_WM said:
"Islamic Civilization"

A contradiction in terms!

On the contrary. Which civilization first made significant discoveries in astronomy? Who invented our numerals? Which civilisation first made significant strides in science? Yes that's right: Islam! Then they retreated from inquiry and became introverted. However that has not always been so and it does not follow that it will remain so. There are many voices in Muslim states today calling for change - it just happens that the Western media couldn't be bothered to report it because it doesn't sell copy in the same way as terrorism and religious hatred do. We see the same with Christianity in Britain - the media create an impression of a Right-Wing, increasingly fundimentalist evangelical Christianity here: how representative is that?

The basis of much of the early Arab/Islamic science was in fact the stored knowledge of the Eastern Roman Empire in otherwords the stored knowledge of European civilisation at that point, which unlike the Goths and Vandals who sacked Rome and the Western Empire the Arabs saved and used to their own benefit. Also as traders between the East and West they were idealy placed to merge eastern and western science. Their main original gift to us all was the concept of zero, if iof course my memory is not yet to malt pickled.
 
I can see elements of truth in both what Maxi_77 and A_a_C say. It's perhaps interesting that all the individual major stars in the sky have Arabic names and the constellations have Greek. When we look at the current Arab states, though, there is little left of that we should be grateful for. Although not exactly the same argument, go along the valley of the Nile now and spot the likely budding geometricians or builders of pyramids.

I think it is fair to say that much Arabic science was achieved before Islam was instituted. I'm not sure it would have progressed far afterwards. How grateful we should be to M Luther and Henry MK 8 for providing a channel for European enlightened thinking. I'm not sure the likes of Newton and Herschel would have thrived under Christian fundamentalism and remember how close Galileo came to grief, inside it. The transition from Christian fanaticism in Europe to our current age of relative tolerance was a brutal, bloody affair. I suspect that a similar transition in Islam will be no less bloody and probably more brutal.
 
So what we need is an Islamic Reformation? The difficulty is that their great schism has already arisen: between Sunnism and Shiism. There is no Islamic equivalent of the Pope or Papal hierarchy. What change that does occur within Islam must come from social and political change, which in turn is interdependent with developments across Islamic Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) or the development of a more confident, assertive, secular, sociopolitical environment. Developments in Fiqh partly arise through advancing knowledge, itself partly derived from scientific enquiry and partly through greater social intercourse between Eastern and Western ideas. Unlike Christianity, where the values are supposedly eternal, in Islam the values are to a degree, subject to knowledge: an important difference between the two ideologies.
 

slim

War Hero
If Richard the Lionheart had finished the job he started there wouldn't be any problems now.
 

Karma

War Hero
umm

By the time he was messing about in Palestine the whole of North Africa, Spain and Persia were muslim states of one form or another.

There is a difference between Islamism and Arabism.
 
If only Richard hadn't stirred up the jealousies of Philip, Fredrick and Leopold! If they had expended as much effort and resources on beating Saladin as they had squabbling amongst themselves, matters may have been different. An example to us all on how not to mount combined operations. I suppose at least Saladin wasn't fighting war by committee and personal greed.
 

RNRAWBOD

Badgeman
Maxi_77 said:
The basis of much of the early Arab/Islamic science was in fact the stored knowledge of the Eastern Roman Empire in otherwords the stored knowledge of European civilisation at that point...

sorry - not true. No more so than Greece was the inheritor of Egyptian civilisation via the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

Or Shakespeare a plagiarist for taking storylines from elsewhere...certainly there are links and influences, but it was not a direct decendent of Hellenistic/Roman culture in this way.

Yours Aye...with a degree in archaeology! :)
 
RNRAWBOD said:
Maxi_77 said:
The basis of much of the early Arab/Islamic science was in fact the stored knowledge of the Eastern Roman Empire in otherwords the stored knowledge of European civilisation at that point...

sorry - not true. No more so than Greece was the inheritor of Egyptian civilisation via the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

Or Shakespeare a plagiarist for taking storylines from elsewhere...certainly there are links and influences, but it was not a direct decendent of Hellenistic/Roman culture in this way.

Yours Aye...with a degree in archaeology! :)


I was not trying to suggest it was a continuation of a culture, rather the founders of the Ottoman empire unlike the likes of the Goths and Vandals etc did not destroy the books etc in thes ame way but used them, they re-created the spirit of inquiry in the Eastern Med that had been lost in the indolence of the Eastern Roman Empire. It was a new culture which sucked in knowledge from where ever it found it.
 

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