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ISIS wanting to come home.

The UK (yes - same rule for E&W, Scotland and NI) legal rule about marriages is that they are recognised as valid here if thay are recognised as vald marriages under the law in force in the place where the marriage was performed. That opens a whole new can of worms.
 
@Levers_Aligned, whilst I, like you, would prefer that we don’t let this person back into the UK, International Law doesn’t allow us to keep her out IF she can prove she’s a British Citizen AND has no other citizenship. If she did have alternative citizenship, we might be able to cancel her British citizenship and make it somebody else’s problem.

This woman’s problems at the moment are:
1. to get to a British Consulate
2. prove that she’s British and has no other citizenship
3. if she gets past the first two, prepare for an intensive enquiry when she does arrive back.

This, of course, says nothing about the potentially lengthy legal proceedings likely to take place concerning her child.

Yep - and that is possibly the direction of travel it will take.

However, it is not beyond the realms to set up a legal challenge to whichever principal court this 'You can't make someone stateless' law exists and we adhere by. Even if the principle is sound, the supporting conditions, in her case she has voluntarily left and existed as a consenting adult aligned and supportive to opposition, terrorist forces who have made clear statements to carry out acts against the country of origin and shows no sign of redemption should be adequate grounds to appeal for an amendment to the law on the basis of security and example to others thinking about the same action. The onus is on her to find a country willing to take her then, or remain in the country she exists in, until she can make the case to apply for citizenship, be it in her original country or another country sympathetic to her political alignment.

In my view, she effectively tore up her UK citizenship the day she crossed the Syrian border and joined the brutal murder cult that is ISIS. If anyone wants any reinforcement of the type of people these lot are, The Young News Channel has a recent vignette of them executing literally hundreds and hundreds of innocent individuals presumably the wrong type of Muslims for them. It is grim viewing - machine gunning them into trenches and head shotting them individually into rivers, but certainly girds the loins for those who get all weak wrists about some silly cow who is now in the guano and carrying one of their kids. She isn't obviously fazed by this.

I am.

Levers
 
It would be good if the jurno, going for the exclusive picks up the legal tag this will have attached to it. @huwshpis would she qualify for legal aid? Making the human rights lawyer a nice earner?

Depends. If she’s facing criminal charges, yes, she’ll most likely get legal aid. The position is more complicated in relation to civil cases, although I can think of a few lawyers who’d be willing to act free of charge.
 
One argument being used is that her "Husband" is Dutch and therefore she could go to the Cloggies, I wouldn't have thought that the type of marriage that this is would be recognised as being legal, if this is the case it's hard to see how she won't make it back to the UK. I suspect that the Journo that found her may be in a position to give her a lift, in return for an exclusive.
The physical process of getting released from custody ,and then to a British consulate I suspect could be fraught with difficulty. Wouldn't be surprised if some are detained by other third parties for an interview without coffee regarding their previous activities.
 
The physical process of getting released from custody ,and then to a British consulate I suspect could be fraught with difficulty. Wouldn't be surprised if some are detained by other third parties for an interview without coffee regarding their previous activities.
She's a British citizen, maybe, depriving her of coffee may be against her human rights?
Maybe she found a way to contact the British press in an hope to pull the media into helping her to get a get out of jail freedom card?
 
She's a British citizen, maybe, depriving her of coffee may be against her human rights?
Maybe she found a way to contact the British press in an hope to pull the media into helping her to get a get out of jail freedom card?
No. British. Depriving Her of tea would be against Her human rights.;)
 
To many snowflakes on those ere interwebs......hope it's well insulated, must be awash in bleeding hearts......as they used say back in the day "feed em rice"......
 
The problem may have been resolved, as it would seem that she has dropped the sprog (a boy) so surely he'll be Syrian........ Wonder if he'll be called Mohammed? No links, but it was on the BBC so must be true.
 
I believe she travelled on her sisters passport out to Turkey and then to Syria. If the UK wanted to play hardball then surely it could be argued that we do not know who she is. Delay her long enough and hopefully her nice Dutch Hubby will be released and take her back to Holland instead.

However, I personally think the media will keep on about her wish to come home to the extent that the Home Office caves in and lets her back. Will she do time? I very much doubt it.

I think that the International Law on making someone stateless did not really consider the cases coming up thanks to ISIS. Challenging the validity of it in this case could again be used as a way to delay her return (and any other UK ISIS recruits).
 
Interesting reading......

IS bride Shamima Begum full transcript: 'It was nice at first, like in the videos'
Sky interview.
BLUF: no regrets, only wanted to leave IS at the end, there’s no evidence she did anything other than being a housewife

My view, ‘you made your bed, now lie on it’. However, with the likelihood we will have to take ‘our’ Jihadi’s captured by the SDF, she will be coming back.

I also heard her lawyer on Sky. Blames the Police and the school. A lack of ‘safeguarding’:

IS bride Shamima Begum full transcript: 'It was nice at first, like in the videos'

The teenager says "a lot of people should have sympathy" for her and there is no evidence she has done anything dangerous.

Sky News has spoken to IS bride Shamima Begum in an exclusive interview just hours after she gave birth to a baby boy in a Syrian refugee camp.

The 19-year-old was one of three schoolgirls from Bethnal Green in east London who travelled to Syria to join the Islamic State in 2015.

Sky correspondent John Sparks interviewed the teenager from the refugee camp.

Here is the full exchange:

Tell me a bit about the child.

It's a boy. I named him after my old son [who died] - that's what my husband wanted.
What are conditions like in the camp?

Right now it's okay. I get fed and I have a heater, but it's kind of difficult going around doing stuff yourself - especially now I have a child.
Will you be able to care for him here?

It's going to be a bit difficult because right now I don't have money.

For people without money, it's hard to get around with the amount of things they give us.

Is life in the camp better than it was in Baghuz over the last few months?

Definitely. I mean, I'm not starving, I have a roof over my head, whereas before I was sleeping outside.

There was no medical care so everyone was getting sick. My kids died because of sickness. So yeah.

You have obviously been through a lot over the last few years. Can you describe what it has been like to live with and under the Islamic State?

At first it was nice, it was like how they showed it in the videos, like 'come, make a family together'.

Then afterwards, things got harder, you know. When we lost Raqqa we had to keep moving and moving and moving. The situation got difficult.

Was there a point when you started to have second thoughts about your life under Islamic State?

Only at the end, after my son died. I realised I had to get out for the sake of my children - for the sake of my daughter and my baby. Yeah.

Only at the end?

Yeah.

You didn't have any regrets up until that point?


No.

What was it about Islamic State that attracted you? What did you like about it?

The way they showed that you can go [to Syria] and they'll take care of you.

You can have your own family, do anything. You're living under Islamic law.

Did you know what Islamic State were doing when you left for Syria? Because they had beheaded people. There were executions.

Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.

From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed. So I was okay with it.

You didn't question that?

No, not at all.

There's a struggle going on in the UK now about whether you should be allowed to come home or not.

Yeah, I know.

What are your feelings about that?

I think a lot of people should have, like, sympathy towards me for everything I've been through.

I didn't know what I was getting into when I left and I just was hoping that for the sake of me and my child, they could let me come back.

Because I can't live in this camp forever. It's not really possible.

The head of the intelligence services in the UK says people like you are potentially very dangerous. What would you say to him?

They don't have any evidence against me doing anything dangerous.

When I went to Syria, I was just a housewife for the entire four years - stayed at home, took care of my husband, took care of my kids.

I never did anything dangerous. I never made propaganda. I never encouraged people to come to Syria.

They don't really have proof that I did anything that is dangerous.

Your family have made an appeal for you to come home. They are pleading with the British government for you to come home. Do you have a message for your family?

You know, just keep trying to get me back. I really don't want to stay here.

I don't want to take care of my child in this camp, because I'm afraid he might even die in this camp.

What do you think life would be like back in the UK?

I don't know. Because I know they would be a lot of restrictions on me, I wouldn't be free to do things that I used to be able to do.

I don't know if they'll take my child away and all these things. That's one of my biggest priorities.

I left because of him, so I don't want him to be taken away from me and I'm just trying to give him a better life.

If the authorities took the child away from you, would you accept that?

It would be hard to accept. I would try my best to keep him with me.

I don't see any reason why they would take him away from me.

There are concerns because of what you have been through, views that people think you may have or still have in regard to Islamic State.

That's something they have to question me about before they take my child away, I guess.

One question that people are asking is whether you can be rehabilitated.

It would be really hard because of everything I've been through now.

I'm still kind of in the mentality of having planes over my head and an emergency backpack and starving, all these things.

I think it would be a big shock to go back to the UK and start life again.

May I ask, what was it that attracted you? Was it from watchhing videos, was there somebody who recruited you? What was it that prompted a 15-year-old girl to go to Syria?

During the time I left, al-Dawla (Islamic State) was on the news and stuff, and like a lot of videos were coming out and I saw all the videos on the internet and that just kind of attracted me to them.

Like it attracted a lot of people.

Do you know whether your friend Amira Abase [who she travelled to Syria with in 2015] is still alive?

I don't know. I haven't heard from her in a long time.

How did you feel when your other friend, Kadiza Sultana, died?

It was a big shock because it was at the beginning of when we left. It was maybe a year after we left. It wasn't something I suspected.

Like, now if I heard that Amira was dead, I wouldn't be surprised.

I would be hurt obviously, but I wouldn't be surprised because of the situation she's still in.

When Kadiza died the situation was still good in Raqqa, it just came out of nowhere.

Do you feel that you have made a mistake? When you look back at what you've been through over the last four years, do you feel like you've made a mistake?

A mistake in going to al-Dawla?

Yes, a mistake in coming here, living under Islamic State.

In a way, yes, but I don't regret it because it's changed me as a person.

It's made me stronger, tougher. I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK.

I had my kids. I did have a good time there, it's just that at the end things got harder and I couldn't take it anymore.

I had to leave.

Have you had any contact with your husband, does he know that you have had a child?

No, I don't know how to get in contact. I don't know if they'd let me get in contact with him and I don't know where he is right now.

I would like to get in contact with him.

Have consular officials from the British government been in touch with you?

No, just another journalist, that's it.

Are you able to see the news coverage centring on you?

No, I don't have my phone, I can't go on the internet, I don't know what's going on around me right now.

Just getting in contact with my family was difficult. I just got lucky, I guess.

You have had some contact with them have you?

Yeah the last journalist that came he contacted my family for me.

Do you have a message for them?

Just please don't give up on me. Try to get me back I really don't want to stay here.

It must have been a terrible shock for your family when you left.

They were [shocked]. Because at first obviously they did try and ask me to come back, but I kept saying no.

Then they gave up, and now I'm kind of, after four years I'm asking them for help now.

It's kind of, a big slap in the face to them.

But I really need the help.

What would you say to them?

I'm sorry for leaving.

Do you feel that there is the possibility of a good future for you and your son?

Yes, if the UK are willing to take me back and help me start a new life again.

I'm just trying to move on from everything that's happened over the last four years.
 
. . .

I think that the International Law on making someone stateless did not really consider the cases coming up thanks to ISIS. Challenging the validity of it in this case could again be used as a way to delay her return (and any other UK ISIS recruits).

The source of the "no statelessness" rule in international law is the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It's been in place since 1948, so good luck with challenging the validity of the rule. The only court competent to rule on the point is the International Court of Justice at the Hague, and as the Declaration was adopted by the vast majority of the then members of the UN, I can't see the Court agreeing that the rule is invalid. In any event, the case would have to be referred to the court by a state and I can't see the Foreign and Commonwealth Office falling over itself to do that. It would also take a very long time to come to trial - several years is the average.

The issues are really now coming down to these:

1. Can this person and her newborn child get to a British Consular post?

2. If they do, is the mother a British Subject? If there's sufficient doubt, the UK Consular service is under no obligation to assist.

3. Was the marriage to the Dutch convert valid? That will depend on where it took place. If in Daesh-controlled territory in Syria or Iraq, it may be that neither country recognises the validity of the marriage, in which case the young woman is NOT married.

4. If she is not married, the Cloggies might still agree to take her on the basis that the child is Dutch (see below).

5. What is the nationality of the newborn child? If the mother's marriage is valid, it is likely to be joint British/Dutch citizenship. If she is not married, the child is British if the mother is who she is thought to be. The child cannot be Syrian, because only children born to Syrian fathers can be Syrians (mothers don't count). The father is described as a Dutch national, and there is no suggestion that he acquired Syrian nationality. Why would he, anyway, if he was a member of Daesh? Just to throw an extra spanner into the works, what if he had renounced his Dutch nationality? He would be stateless and his child would (if national law allowed it) have its mother's nationality at birth. UK law does allow this.

There are a lot of facts we don't yet know. The most likely outcome is looking like a return to the UK. What we do with mother and child after they get here will depend on what evidence is available to our authorities.
 

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