ISIS wanting to come home.

huwshpis

War Hero
I am working over in the Netherlands at the moment and the conversation came up earlier with my Dutch Air Force colleagues, the consensus over here suggests the Dutch Government are happy to wash their hands of it and hope the Father somehow disappears, they have not interest in the child or the mother. They believe it is a UK problem only.
Maybe they know enough to regard the "marriage" as being no such thing. (see #105) :)
 

Sumo

War Hero
If one can believe a Sun headline, she ain't doing her self any favours, saw it walking through a shop.
 

clonmel

Lantern Swinger
This, for me at any rate, is a bit of a story of two halves.

The immediate issue of the girl and her baby - the popular, and understandable, point of view, "Let her rot in Syria, the poisonous little bitch". I can understand how people might come to that conclusion, particularly when you consider the nature of the organisation (ISIS) that she got involved with. She turned her back on everything that she had in the UK; a family, schooling, friends, safety, choices etc etc etc.

However.............

Once we start knee-jerking policies, based upon "the court of public opinion" then precisely where do we stop? Does anyone remember the sacking of Sharon Shoesmith by Ed Balls in 2007? Yup, the media-driven circus caused a Govt Minister to act very dubiously, and he dismissed her without following due process. The net result being that Shoesmith took them to judicial review, won, and got a £680.000 payout. Any politico, regardless of post / position / responsibility, would throw you or me under a bus in a second if they thought that it would get them votes, or raise their popularity stakes - please be in no doubt about that.

The law of the land is the law of the land. In so far as I understand it, and I'm happy to be corrected, Begum is a British citizen and by default so is her child. Justin Trudeau gives a very effective interview on this topic - much as I disagree with his politics - on the dangers inherent in demonising someone just because you dislike what they say / the way they look / their religion. He is absolutely right that the principle of "No Canadian should be tortured" outweighs public anger at 3 home grown jihadis getting a wodge of cash. So, distasteful as she is (I think we'd all agree), Begum is entitled to consular assistance and the protection of the Crown, regardless of her political beliefs. The protections I describe above are in place for all of us; not just Muslims, or LGBTQIA++++XYZ people, much as the Daily Mail would have you believe otherwise. For heaven's sake, if you walk down Croydon High Street on a wet Wednesday morning, you'll find plenty of people who dislike the UK; get used to it.

The decent, civilised thing to do in this case would be to bring her back to the UK, charge her with any offences she may have committed, and send her down for a long time. The child should go into care if the family cannot prove they can look after him satisfactorily,
 
BZ @clonmel & V similar to my own reflections.

After all (despicable and incorrigible as she currently appears) the
freedom of expression bought dearly by the sacrifices of our forebears allows for certain of her views whilst providing for her due process under our Laws.

Initial knee-jerking remedies of otherwise rational folk (including me, even) will ultimately demand the cooler heads of those i/c of events..

IMHO - Head Vs Heart & Nature Vs Nurture arguments both deserve calmer consideration following the inevitable initial outrage.
 

fishhead

War Hero
This, for me at any rate, is a bit of a story of two halves.


.

. For heaven's sake, if you walk down Croydon High Street on a wet Wednesday morning, you'll find plenty of people who dislike the UK; get used to it.

,
You are to be congratulated for your even handed appraisal but I find myself at odds with the highlighted section and not because I think it is untrue but rather because the good citizens of Croydon , in the main, are not happy to see people in the UK murdered in the name of some extreme Islamic cult.
If people living in the UK are unhappy with the way things are they have the option to decamp and seek their nirvana elsewhere. In fairness to Miss Begum she took that option but now appears to think for all the UK's faults she would be happier living here after all.
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
ITV News has just announced that the Home Secretary has served papers on her family renouncing her British Citizenship. I assume that she has dual nationality, if not watch the pound signs light up in the legal worlds eyes.
 

clonmel

Lantern Swinger

clonmel

Lantern Swinger
You are to be congratulated for your even handed appraisal but I find myself at odds with the highlighted section and not because I think it is untrue but rather because the good citizens of Croydon , in the main, are not happy to see people in the UK murdered in the name of some extreme Islamic cult.
If people living in the UK are unhappy with the way things are they have the option to decamp and seek their nirvana elsewhere. In fairness to Miss Begum she took that option but now appears to think for all the UK's faults she would be happier living here after all.
My bold - plenty of people do.

I do not doubt for one second that her "new-found love for England's green & pleasant land" is purely down to the collapse of ISIS. If they now ruled Northern Iraq and Syria completely and irrevocably, and were pumping oil like the North Sea (whilst remaining savage barbaric c**ts) to finance the caliphate, then she'd be quite happy still living there, taking little Abu to watch the beheadings on a Saturday afternoon.

But we're talking at crossed purposes.

The fundamental here is that once you start picking on, or isolating, mistreating, castigating etc someone because you don't like their views, religious beliefs etc etc, then you're on a slippery slope. UK citizens have the protection of law & statute, regardless of whether they are members of the Royal Family or members of the IRA.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
My bold - plenty of people do.

I do not doubt for one second that her "new-found love for England's green & pleasant land" is purely down to the collapse of ISIS. If they now ruled Northern Iraq and Syria completely and irrevocably, and were pumping oil like the North Sea (whilst remaining savage barbaric c**ts) to finance the caliphate, then she'd be quite happy still living there, taking little Abu to watch the beheadings on a Saturday afternoon.

But we're talking at crossed purposes.

The fundamental here is that once you start picking on, or isolating, mistreating, castigating etc someone because you don't like their views, religious beliefs etc etc, then you're on a slippery slope. UK citizens have the protection of law & statute, regardless of whether they are members of the Royal Family or members of the IRA.
Fair points, well made Clonmel but if I may:

You stated:

the dangers inherent in demonising someone just because you dislike what they say / the way they look / their religion
This is about none of the above. There are plenty of people living in the UK who say what they want, look how they want and have faith in what they want. It's something of pride that we live in a country which affords individuals such freedoms because, as we know, Begum can't say what she wants, look how she wants or believe in what she wants. No woman living under a fundamentalist strain of Islam can.

This is about 'what she has done'. What has she done? Okay, she's sought the recruitment of a brutalising death cult dressed up as some or other pure form of Islam. And it's not just a gaggle of nut jobs with rifles and camo gear. This is a radical, organised militia, numbering tens of thousands at its peak. She wanted to be part of it and married into it. And, here's another 'what she did', she is not contrite, regretful of repentant about it. As far as her mindset is concerned, ISIS's methods of tearing up any concept of humanity even in 'warfare' (because it's not 'war' for them, it is genocide) is entirely correct. She has said so and even aligns the Manchester bombing with the near sighted 'killing of women and children in allied air strikes'. If you do a bit of philosophical mathematics, there is no way both sides of the equation are equal. She is wrong, but to her, she isn't wrong, and neither is that **** who killed women and kids at an Ariane Grande concert. If you have any doubts about why 'the court of public opinion' is in default here, have a click of this motherfucker. Be warned, it's NOT SAFE FOR WORK

Genocide

Hopefully, you'll understand why 'the court of public opinion' holds a string case against this individual firstly joining this bunch of *****, then finding out after four years that she's backed the wrong horse. She had a pretty decent life in the UK as a Bangladeshi immigrant. Decent schooling, freedom of expression, a western economy and a free health service. Now she wants it back, but with the clause we kind of accept and understand she still doesn't like us and given the right alignment of fate, would happily not be fazed if we were all machine gunned to death in a ditch because we can't recount the Hadith. I'd be quite happy if she fucked off, permanently. I have no sympathy for her. She has been the architect of her **** up and there are hundreds of disadvantaged, poverty stricken and homeless females in our own sweet country whom I would prioritise over her. I am not responsible for her, her radicalisation or her situation.

Levers
 

huwshpis

War Hero
I have just read the BBC report at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47299907

The young woman seems to have been made aware of the Home Secretary's decision and says she's never held a Bangladeshi passport or been to that country. With all due respect to the BBC, that's got nothing to do with the situation. Ms Begum is presumably entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship on the basis that her mother or father has that citizenship (as well as British citizenship?), and it does not matter that she was born in the UK.

What the UK is saying is that if Ms Begum wants consular assistance, she will have to find a Bangladeshi consulate and there is no point coming to a UK consulate. They're also saying that she will have to apply for a visa if she wants to come to the UK, and it's implied that she won't get one.

There is a right of appeal against the decision, so that is the obvious next step for her to take if she's so set on coming back here. She can't necessarily mount a judicial review of the Home Secretary's decision because she has an alternative remedy available (the appeal). The appeal may well cure any procedural defects in the original decision, so if she loses, she'd better start applying for that Bangladeshi passport she never had.
 
^VMT, noting the 'but subject to appeal...' it's almost TFFT on that despicable person.

Yet I harbour a creepy feeling that the Times (&/or BBC etc) will eventually discover (and pay for the stories?) of AN OTHERS but with sole BritCitz entitlements next time around. :eek:

Best keep the fleet of outrage omnibuses fully charged and fuelled, eh? ;)
 

clonmel

Lantern Swinger
Fair points, well made Clonmel but if I may:

You stated:



This is about none of the above. There are plenty of people living in the UK who say what they want, look how they want and have faith in what they want. It's something of pride that we live in a country which affords individuals such freedoms because, as we know, Begum can't say what she wants, look how she wants or believe in what she wants. No woman living under a fundamentalist strain of Islam can.

This is about 'what she has done'. What has she done? Okay, she's sought the recruitment of a brutalising death cult dressed up as some or other pure form of Islam. And it's not just a gaggle of nut jobs with rifles and camo gear. This is a radical, organised militia, numbering tens of thousands at its peak. She wanted to be part of it and married into it. And, here's another 'what she did', she is not contrite, regretful of repentant about it. As far as her mindset is concerned, ISIS's methods of tearing up any concept of humanity even in 'warfare' (because it's not 'war' for them, it is genocide) is entirely correct. She has said so and even aligns the Manchester bombing with the near sighted 'killing of women and children in allied air strikes'. If you do a bit of philosophical mathematics, there is no way both sides of the equation are equal. She is wrong, but to her, she isn't wrong, and neither is that **** who killed women and kids at an Ariane Grande concert. If you have any doubts about why 'the court of public opinion' is in default here, have a click of this motherfucker. Be warned, it's NOT SAFE FOR WORK

Genocide

Hopefully, you'll understand why 'the court of public opinion' holds a string case against this individual firstly joining this bunch of *****, then finding out after four years that she's backed the wrong horse. She had a pretty decent life in the UK as a Bangladeshi immigrant. Decent schooling, freedom of expression, a western economy and a free health service. Now she wants it back, but with the clause we kind of accept and understand she still doesn't like us and given the right alignment of fate, would happily not be fazed if we were all machine gunned to death in a ditch because we can't recount the Hadith. I'd be quite happy if she fucked off, permanently. I have no sympathy for her. She has been the architect of her **** up and there are hundreds of disadvantaged, poverty stricken and homeless females in our own sweet country whom I would prioritise over her. I am not responsible for her, her radicalisation or her situation.

Levers
Two things.

One - there are tens [if not hundreds] of thousands of people in South Armagh, the Bogside in Derry, Andytown in Belfast and various other places in the Province who also married into a terror organisation, and indeed even now hold some pretty anti-British or anti-Establishment beliefs. Those self same inhabitants of the Province would quite happily see you and I, as military servants of the Crown, in a ditch in Bandit Country with a 9mm headache. In fact, scrub 'the Province', add - Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester , London - anywhere that there are large collections of the Irish.

Two - THIS is what happens when you allow the 'court of public opinion' free rein.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/vigilante-mob-attacks-home-of-paediatrician-710864.html

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/falsely-accused-belfast-man-slams-vigilante-paedophile-hunters-36450259.html

https://www.forces.net/news/new-wave-intimidation-paramilitary-groups-northern-ireland

The protection that the law enshrines for Shamima Begum (if she ever gets back to the UK, now doubtful) applies to, and protects, you and I my friend.

Edit - Shamima Begum was born in the UK (Bethnal Green in London to be exact) but because of familial connections with Bangladesh (her mother is a Bangladeshi citizen) she has right of abode in that state.
 

huwshpis

War Hero
Bob, it's hard to visualise any cases from within the Bangladeshi community where the youngsters will only have British Citizenship. This is because the Bangladeshi Nationality law says that anyone born to Bangladeshi parents, wherever they're born, is a Bangladeshi citizen. So Great-Grandpa/ma is Bangladeshi, get citizenship here, kids are both British and Bangladeshi, grandkids definitely Bangladeshi (may not be British, depends who the kids marry and what citizenship they adopt), great-grand kids also Bangladeshi + whatever else, and so on.
 
@huwshpis

Appreciate the info re-Bangladeshi persons, a daily advancement of pertinent knowledge regarding what I've always regarded as Pakladesh :)

Possibly due to the pace of activities at this thread or 'my bold' ineptness - My #132 concerns address the hypothetical possibility of more similarly inclined 'warriors' (radicalised by ISIS propoganda either at home or away) surfacing from the camps but originally home bred and protected by their solely British Nationality status.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
Two things.

One - there are tens [if not hundreds] of thousands of people in South Armagh, the Bogside in Derry, Andytown in Belfast and various other places in the Province who also married into a terror organisation, and indeed even now hold some pretty anti-British or anti-Establishment beliefs. Those self same inhabitants of the Province would quite happily see you and I, as military servants of the Crown, in a ditch in Bandit Country with a 9mm headache. In fact, scrub 'the Province', add - Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester , London - anywhere that there are large collections of the Irish.
Difference being is that said Republicans are and always have been UK citizens and resided in this country. They have not voluntarily trotted off to a third party country to actively join a terrorist entity. And, I think as bestial as the PIRA and other paramilitaries on both sides can be, I don't quite recall them clearing out entire villages onto the outskirts where trenches are dug and operatives systematically kill cowering, terrified people by the thousands. The worst IRA terrorist strike albeit horrific, pales into insignificance compared to what ISIS doles out, and this is only the stuff filmed and released to the internet. I don't doubt that once the country has been cleared of these thugs, the killing fields will compare to those sickening images of Jews being bulldozed and the horrors of the Bosnian genocide and Rawanda. She's obviously not fazed by that.

I trust you watched the ISIS Genocide clip. Nice to see them having such a good time carrying out such abhorrent acts on human beings in the name of what they believe is their god

Two - THIS is what happens when you allow the 'court of public opinion' free rein.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/vigilante-mob-attacks-home-of-paediatrician-710864.html

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/falsely-accused-belfast-man-slams-vigilante-paedophile-hunters-36450259.html

https://www.forces.net/news/new-wave-intimidation-paramilitary-groups-northern-ireland

The protection that the law enshrines for Shamima Begum (if she ever gets back to the UK, now doubtful) applies to, and protects, you and I my friend.
No, this is not an example of the court of public opinion at all. Each example is there on it's own merit. First one, ignorance; second one, vigilantism. The third one is simple gangsterism.

Edit - Shamima Begum was born in the UK (Bethnal Green in London to be exact) but because of familial connections with Bangladesh (her mother is a Bangladeshi citizen) she has right of abode in that state.
I was under the belief she was born in Bangladesh and came here aged two. Happy to be corrected if yours is indeed the case.

Levers
 

huwshpis

War Hero
. . .

Edit - Shamima Begum was born in the UK (Bethnal Green in London to be exact) but because of familial connections with Bangladesh (her mother is a Bangladeshi citizen) she has right of abode in that state.
Not quite right. Under Bangladeshi Nationality Law, she is a Bangladeshi national, that's way above just having a right of abode.
 

repoman

War Hero
I think my views on law & order are fairly well known on this site. I am just to the right of Ghengis Khan.
Justice in this country is far too soft and I believe is the reason that many re-offend.
How many crimes does a criminal have to commit before he/she is encarcerated.
Yep I believe in the Chinese three strikes and you are out type of justice. You get two chances after a third offence then tis a bullet in the head. Final insult is the family have to pay for the bullet.
Reckon if we had that then the little shits committing crimes may go to court twice but I bet they would not go a third time. :)
I, as well as I believe, the vast majority of the general non ‘lefty’ population agree wholeheartedly with you Slim. Unfortunately due to the minorities and politically correct, we are prevented from expressing our views on many things...especially when it comes to any form of sincere punishment.
 

Sumo

War Hero
The government has made its move, other than some human rights lawyer trying it on, with an appeal, which would require them proving she is not a threat it would appear this one may be over.

@huwshpis Now her British citizenship has been removed, would there be British legal aid available as she would be challenging a potential unlawful ruling of her British Citizenship?

What has surprised me is some can call those that voted to leave the EU are xenophobic Bigot’s, they then come on to this thread, and show there true colours.

Defend democracy, defend the principles of a civilised nation, and defend the rights to free speech, until they disagree with your opinions, amazing what a bit of cage rattling will do?
 

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