Is it time for war or peace in the Middle East?

#1
Opinion peace from Dr. Abbas Bakhtiar that makes some interesting points..


“Approach each new problem not with a view of finding what you hope will be there, but to get the truth, the realities that must be grappled with. You may not like what you find. In that case you are entitled to try to change it. But do not deceive yourself as to what you do find to be the facts of the situation.†Bernard M. Baruch (1870 - 1965)


I believe that in every war, truth is the first casualty; and as such is usually reported long after the war is finished, and even then only as a foot note. Churchill once said that “men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.†Although others and I have repeatedly written about the reasons behind the Iraq invasion, people tend to forget. And people who forget tend to repeat the same mistake over and over again. The invasion of Iraq was not because of WMDs. It was about oil and Israel. Today the US is on the verge of starting another war again, this time with Iran, for exactly the same reasons.


But is it necessary? Can US have access to oil without dominating the region? Can Israel accept the fact that others also feel insecure and need guarantees for their security
http://www.amin.org/look/amin/en.tp...ation=7&NrArticle=39762&NrIssue=1&NrSection=3
 
#2
I for one have always had some difficulty with the oil argument, there is enough to go round and if a won't sell you any, b will. I thing SH being a vain bully tried to pretent that he still had WMD so that he could be seen by those around him as standing up to GW and the US and equally believed that when push came to shove the Americans wouldn't invade. Sadly for all he got that one wrong. He kept the grandstand act going too long and at the end gave in in a way that re-inforced the US idea that he was hiding something. Of course the fact that much of the 'evidence' came from emigrees intend on getting rid of SH probably didn't help, along with SHs history of trying to always gain an edge somewhere. As to Israel I am sure they helped things along by helping build the WMD story.
 
#3
Of course, it's time for peace, but there are too many entrenched views held by too many interested parties for this to come about while any sentient human being still believes in God. I don't think that Dr Bakhtiar is too far wrong in his belief that Iraq was invaded to secure oil supplies for the US and that if anything else gets in the way of this stream, it will be dealt with in a similar manner.
 
#4
Maxi_77 said:
I for one have always had some difficulty with the oil argument, there is enough to go round and if a won't sell you any, b will. I thing SH being a vain bully tried to pretent that he still had WMD so that he could be seen by those around him as standing up to GW and the US and equally believed that when push came to shove the Americans wouldn't invade. Sadly for all he got that one wrong. He kept the grandstand act going too long and at the end gave in in a way that re-inforced the US idea that he was hiding something. Of course the fact that much of the 'evidence' came from emigrees intend on getting rid of SH probably didn't help, along with SHs history of trying to always gain an edge somewhere. As to Israel I am sure they helped things along by helping build the WMD story.
I must have missed something here. Oil is a finite resource and production barely keeps up with consumption; additional oil discoveries keep pace with neither. Emerging economies are draining a resource once thought to be exclusive preserve of the West. In just a few years the world will be in a real energy crunch.

By invading Iraq Georgie and Tone thought that they had the world's second biggest oil-reserves in their pockets and could control the rest of the region and therefore the price per barrel. This is why 14 "Enduring Super Bases" are being constructed in Iraq by the USA and even the Democrats are saying that the US will be based in Iraq for many years to come. Remember that Saudi Arabia had kicked them out of existing bases just a few years before.

Bliar and Bush knew that the reasons for the illegal invasion were not just suspect but totally fabricated. They knew this because they were the ones disseminating, lying and fabricating. Both the USA and Britain knew that there were no WMD's in Iraq. They had been told this by Hans Blix and also by Hussein Karmal.

Invade Iraq > Get control of Iraqi oil> Control the region> Control regional oil supplies> Control governments> Protect Israel.

It was all very well laid out in the document "Project For A New American Century" by a right-wing US think-tank.

RM
 
#5
It is time for war in Iraq and possibly indeed the Middle-East, and like it or not this war will happen and will happen now. But I would recommend for the good of British lives that troops should be withdrawn and we should let them get on with it.

Iraq is an Islamic nation, but of three major schisms. The Kurds to the North, the Shi'ites to the South and the Sunnis in the middle who nobody particularly care for. It wouldn't really all be so bad except these three schisms hate each other and in the power vacuum left by Saddam Hussein are all vying for leadership. Iraq is not a democratic country and I believe that upon pulling British and American forces back home will return to its savage, dictatorship ways, following a horrible civil war.

The best option I think, is to permit this civil war to take place rather than sacrifice the lives of British peacekeeping forces any longer. I accept that this will cruelly condemn many innocents to death, and the country to an economic depression. But I cannot believe that I am alone when I consider the lives of British nationals above the lives of foreigners.

Ready for incoming.
 
#6
Peter
You won't get any incoming from me. I agree with you that this war is going to happen. Our troops are just playing piggy in the middle. Bring them home and let battle commence.
 
#7
slim said:
Peter
You won't get any incoming from me. I agree with you that this war is going to happen. Our troops are just playing piggy in the middle. Bring them home and let battle commence.
There's a lot more British blood will be spilled before the Piper is paid for this particular tune. It hasn't even started yet.

RM
 
#8
Bergen said:
slim said:
Peter
You won't get any incoming from me. I agree with you that this war is going to happen. Our troops are just playing piggy in the middle. Bring them home and let battle commence.
There's a lot more British blood will be spilled before the Piper is paid for this particular tune. It hasn't even started yet.

RM
Unfortunately Bergen I think you are right
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#9
slim said:
Peter
You won't get any incoming from me. I agree with you that this war is going to happen. Our troops are just playing piggy in the middle. Bring them home and let battle commence.
Yeah. That's right. Let's just cut-and-run, now we ahve found out that the lessons we failed to learn on Iraq (and let's face it, occupation in general) were never learned. We'll just politley back out of the room and let savage butchery take place. Whereas before, there was a toothless despotic ******** who pushed his people about a bit, at least the body count was manageable. At least we knew the nature of the beast. Care to tell me if anything ... anything at all has improved in Iraq on account of our intervention? Then tell me if it will improve if we retire? Do you think that yes, Iraq will fragment and being as we have 15% of the world's remaining oil reserves sat under the sand, and that yes, there will be absolutely no quarter spared to dominate the region - be it by Iranian backed Shia militias, Arab backed Sunnis or Yank backed Kurds? Any idea of the scale of genocide suffered pre-post and during the first Gulf War between Iran and Iraq?

'Puch on and take Baghdad? Sir, I beleiev we would have been there even today, stuck like a dinosaur in a mudpool'

Schzwartkopf - as in General-type

We're fucked. Pull out and the place will be a boneyard, and we are responsible. Fine, if you can sleep at night confident that those brown-skinned individuals who dig Allah but don't quite wanna fight can just go and die. Fine if the kids of these people who lose an eye, a limb or even their lives are just images on the telly.

It's indicative of the shit this country is in. War fought on the talking box in the corner. We're cars packed with explosives going off in your cities every single ******* day, you'd be praying for someone or something to happen. The people of Iraq don't deserve civil war. Especially if we caused it.

Levers
 
#10
Levers_Aligned said:
slim said:
Peter
You won't get any incoming from me. I agree with you that this war is going to happen. Our troops are just playing piggy in the middle. Bring them home and let battle commence.
Yeah. That's right. Let's just cut-and-run, now we ahve found out that the lessons we failed to learn on Iraq (and let's face it, occupation in general) were never learned. We'll just politley back out of the room and let savage butchery take place. Whereas before, there was a toothless despotic ******** who pushed his people about a bit, at least the body count was manageable. At least we knew the nature of the beast. Care to tell me if anything ... anything at all has improved in Iraq on account of our intervention? Then tell me if it will improve if we retire? Do you think that yes, Iraq will fragment and being as we have 15% of the world's remaining oil reserves sat under the sand, and that yes, there will be absolutely no quarter spared to dominate the region - be it by Iranian backed Shia militias, Arab backed Sunnis or Yank backed Kurds? Any idea of the scale of genocide suffered pre-post and during the first Gulf War between Iran and Iraq?

'Puch on and take Baghdad? Sir, I beleiev we would have been there even today, stuck like a dinosaur in a mudpool'

Schzwartkopf - as in General-type

We're fucked. Pull out and the place will be a boneyard, and we are responsible. Fine, if you can sleep at night confident that those brown-skinned individuals who dig Allah but don't quite wanna fight can just go and die. Fine if the kids of these people who lose an eye, a limb or even their lives are just images on the telly.

It's indicative of the shit this country is in. War fought on the talking box in the corner. We're cars packed with explosives going off in your cities every single ******* day, you'd be praying for someone or something to happen. The people of Iraq don't deserve civil war. Especially if we caused it.

Levers

Perfect summation and I would only disagree with your last sentence. There is no doubt about "IF" we caused it. We are neck deep in the blood and shit and the responsibility sits squarely on Mr. Bliar's narrow shoulders.

Today marks the 4th anniversary of this illegal war that stains all of us and we will reap a whirlwind when it is all over. The only faint light in the darkness is a statement by Mr. Moreno-Ocampo the Chief Prosecutor at the International Criminal Court in the Hague. He says that he can envision circumstances where one day Bliar will stand in his dock accused of war-crimes in the prosecution of this barbarity.

RM
 
#11
Levers_Aligned said:
Care to tell me if anything ... anything at all has improved in Iraq on account of our intervention?
Well the treatment of women in Iraq has certainly changed. Wives did use to walk ten yards behind their husbands, as a sign of the female's servitude. Now various different mines are lying about the place, wives now walk ten yards in front of their husbands! :twisted:

Bad joke, I know.

On the serious side, an evil dictator has been removed, and Iraq has been made a 'safe' country again. I use that word 'safe' in the Foreign Office sense, whereas Iraq is now unable to launch an NBC attack against Great Britain or any of her dependancies. BP, Esso and Shell have managed to get their hands on some more oil (but petrol is still yet to reduce in price), and Tony Blair has managed to sign the death certificate for New Labour (Unless some idiot is really so incredibly stupid to vote for them again).

Although I have to admit, that the second Gulf war was a fabulous piece of political misdirection. The papers have seemed to have forgotten about the floundering NHS, the increase in Council Taxes and the inability of the Police force to combat crime.
 

mophead

Lantern Swinger
#12
If we stay:
Lots of natives kill each other
More of our troops get killed
If we go:
Lots of natives kill each other
Hmmm.......not much of a decision,given that the safety of our troops should come first.
The whole middle east is a collection of tribes of different religios/ethnic groups who have been killing each other since pre Biblical times....wether we leave or stay this will continue.
 
#13
mophead said:
If we stay:
Lots of natives kill each other
More of our troops get killed
If we go:
Lots of natives kill each other
Hmmm.......not much of a decision,given that the safety of our troops should come first.
The whole middle east is a collection of tribes of different religios/ethnic groups who have been killing each other since pre Biblical times....wether we leave or stay this will continue.
This is a rather simplistic view but one with which I am in complete agreement.
 

mophead

Lantern Swinger
#15
Slim
It is a simplistic view,but serves to illustrate that we are buggered whatever we do.The decisions only get messy and complicated when we start considering the motivation/moral position/of all the opposing groups.
There is blame to be allocated,people made the wrong decisions for the wrong reasons and caused too many unneccessary deaths;the rights and wrongs will be debated and judged,possibly at a War Crimes tribunal,but let's just get our people out of there before we lose anyone else.A gallon of oil is not worth the death of one more person,on any side.
 
#16
Though its a personal opinion I truly believe that civil war in Iraq is inevitable and there is nothing the West can do to stop it. The only control over this civil war that the West has is the timing. When we withdraw the civil war will begin, in fact it has already started. so lets withdraw the troops now and stop any more needless loss of servicemen's lives.
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#17
Peter said:
Levers_Aligned said:
Care to tell me if anything ... anything at all has improved in Iraq on account of our intervention?
Well the treatment of women in Iraq has certainly changed. Wives did use to walk ten yards behind their husbands, as a sign of the female's servitude. Now various different mines are lying about the place, wives now walk ten yards in front of their husbands! :twisted:

Bad joke, I know.
Yup.

On the serious side, an evil dictator has been removed, and Iraq has been made a 'safe' country again. I use that word 'safe' in the Foreign Office sense, whereas Iraq is now unable to launch an NBC attack against Great Britain or any of her dependancies.
Okay. Do you now fancy telling us exactly how Iraq could launch a NBC attack against Britain or any of her dependencies. Start with:

1. What WMD Iraq were supposed to own
2. What deliversy systems she owns to be able to carry out such acts
3. Which dependencies we are talking about here
4. The motive for such an act
5. The consequences of Saddam using any supposed WMD on another sovereign state, particularly one armed with strategic weapons

BP, Esso and Shell have managed to get their hands on some more oil (but petrol is still yet to reduce in price),
...and your point is, caller? Yes. American plutocrats have used national defence forces licensed by government policy backed by a scared electorate to make a half-arsed attempt to secure oil reserves. And strangely, the cost at the pump rises. Someone is ******* someone else over here, you reckon. Of course, whilst all of this happens, another VBIED detonates in an Iraqi market square killing sixty and maiming hundreds. A worthy cause for the oil companies, huh?

and Tony Blair has managed to sign the death certificate for New Labour (Unless some idiot is really so incredibly stupid to vote for them again).
The electorate will vote the ***** in again. That's because the electorate is fat, dumb and happy, war and hardship isn't happening in their street and they can switch off the footage of a child being loaded onto a stretcher in Baghdad and watch Corrers. ******* ace, huh?

Although I have to admit, that the second Gulf war was a fabulous piece of political misdirection. The papers have seemed to have forgotten about the floundering NHS, the increase in Council Taxes and the inability of the Police force to combat crime.
The papers haven't forgot anything of the sort. They are easy headlines, things that are happening to us, whilst over in Helmund, another bootneck is shot by a sniper and dies in agony as his buddies try to admisister first aid. They ship him home under darkness and there goes another sad statistic of a fatherless family and ahole in people's lives, because:

a. there are insufficient resources commintted to Afghanistan to control the resurgence of the Taliban
b. we never ******* learn
c. we always join George's Crusade
d. we are fighting two wars on extended spindles on a peacetime defence budget, while meanwhile back at home, people go to Mac-*******-Donalds, watch telly and don't give a ****.

Levers
 

Levers_Aligned

War Hero
Moderator
#18
slim said:
Though its a personal opinion I truly believe that civil war in Iraq is inevitable and there is nothing the West can do to stop it. The only control over this civil war that the West has is the timing. When we withdraw the civil war will begin, in fact it has already started. so lets withdraw the troops now and stop any more needless loss of servicemen's lives.
And glibly discharge all responsibility for starting the ******, huh? We did everything we could to start it, lied to the electorate to start it and found out (once again) that those plucky ragheads were just a tad too fiesty for our capricious lack of planning and forethought.

Statesmanship isn't your bag, slim. Is it?

Levers
 
#20
Levers_Aligned said:
And glibly discharge all responsibility for starting the ******, huh? We did everything we could to start it, lied to the electorate to start it and found out (once again) that those plucky ragheads were just a tad too fiesty for our capricious lack of planning and forethought.

Statesmanship isn't your bag, slim. Is it?

Levers
Whilst I would not in the slightest question your suggestion the GWB and co had not the slightest idea what to do with Iraq when they had conquered it, however I would not call the murderous terrorist b*stards who are slaughtering their own countrymen in the pursuit of political power 'plucky ragheads'.
 

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