Is It Me??!

Discussion in 'The Fleet' started by philthy, Nov 26, 2007.

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  1. Speaking as a civvie who left the Mob many moons ago, I am pretty amazed at the amount of time new recruits manage to find to write posts or keep their posts on this Forum up to date - e.g. "8 days since joined". and seem to spend half their Basic training staring at a pc screen.

    How can the RN expect to recruit dedicated people if they spend half their time on their computers/mobiles/pda's etc? What has been sacrificed to ensure these recruits are pampered?

    Fair enough you can't stop progress and technology moves on, that goes without saying but if I certainly did not have the time or energy to divert to non training activities etc. Has it changed so much due to the p.c. brigade?

    I spoke to a guy recently who was leaving the mob as he is utterly disgusted with the quality of the sprogs joining up and coming through the system. His decision was confirmed when he was faced with a new guy on board who could not write (Literally) up a maintenance report.

    Discuss.... o_O
  2. the_matelot

    the_matelot War Hero Moderator

    I agree-I didn't have time to **** for the first 5 weeks nevermind track down a computer and actually log onto it (they did have pc's in the mid 90's when I joined up you know) ! :D

    However, you can't tar all the guys/girls coming through basic training as being completely useless-I know of a few who have joined up as ratings with degrees-in fact, I joined up with a Survey Recorder who had 2 degrees!
  3. the_matelot. Thank you so much for allowing my keyboard to share my Old Empire!
  4. I joined in 1979 and I don't recall having time to think, let alone log onto a computer (even if we'd have had them in that day and age). If you weren't bulling your boots, ironing your kit, preparing for a kit muster or reading up on GNK, you were probably sleeping or on the parade ground/in the gym.
  5. I joined Jan 74 at Ganges. In our mess we all worked as a team so that we all got plenty of time in the evening to sit in the rec space playing records and having a chat/laugh and a smoke... Great times... Work hard, play hard has always worked out for me.

  6. Yes… worked as a team, hung out as a team. From what I can see now far too many people spend their spare time keeping their own company with an ipod or a PC.
  7. They'll be giving them washing machines next!! tut......
  8. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Oooh, it must be a month at least since we've heard this one.



    1. A team were tasked to search for evidence to either confirm or refute the commonly held belief that the quality of our current recruits is unsatisfactory.


    2. Individuals interviewd from accross the Fleet, and the following results recorded.

    a. There is a very low incidence of trained personnel being discharged for inadequacy and this has fallen further in recent years .
    b. Operational standards are being achieved within acceptable time-scales
    c. There is no discernible trend to suggest that it is taking longer to reach operational effectiveness.
    d. Operational effectiveness has not been lowered
    e. Operational effectiveness appears set at about the right level and that the recruits achieving it were of a satisfactory standard.
    f. Negative comments made are both difficult to substantiate or disprove but were generally not supported. To some extent these comments appear to be self-perpetuating in nature and are seemingly made by those with either little understanding of manpower issues or those who view today’s recruit through ‘it was tougher in my day’ glasses.
    g. As yesterdays’ recruits are achieving the necessary standards to move up the promotion ladder, it is reasoned that yesterday’s fears about lack of quality were unfounded. It is suggested that today’s concerns may, equally, prove to be unfounded
    h. The suggestion that Task Book ‘Lesson Plans/Teaching scripts’ should be introduced may merit further consideration
    i. Lack of discipline is seen as an issue by some, particularly a lack of respect and recognition of LHs. Use of LH instructors at Basic Training establishments was welcomed. Continued exposure during Phase 2 might further enforce the role and authority of the LH.

    General comments

    3. Levels achieved were considered to be sufficient for the rating to succeed by those at the frontline. It was considered very rare for a rating to fail to satisfactorily complete his/her task book. Overall newly trained recruits are quite capable and can (and do) reach set standards in acceptable time-scales. This is supported by a very low incidence of inadequacy discharges.

    4. The poor quality of recruits is a re-occurring theme. Remarks remain stubbornly consistent and pessimistic. The language may have altered slightly, but the meaning behind the comments made 30 years ago are surprisingly similar to those of today. The genuine concern of 30 years ago – ‘that the current intake of recruits could not provide the number or quality of Senior Rates for the future’ – did not materialise. Whilst there may have been an occasional shortage of quality candidates for promotion in some branches, most branches enjoy a strong and healthy competition for promotion. Overall the negative views expressed were not agreed. Such views are commonly expressed but are often old, regurgitated opinions rather than new, fully considered one, and are often borne from a lack of understanding of manpower issues or from a sense of frustration caused by other problems.

    5. Other re-occurring themes arising during discussions included:
    a. A perception that discharge under training had reduced because of an increased use of training extensions and branch transfers. As recruitment targets include an element for training wastage, it can be reasonably argued that such wastage is to be expected.
    b. perceptions that failure rates were connected to RT scores and that RT scores needed revision. It is understood that a recent statistical study did not support this view.
    c. a perception that educational standards have fallen (and by inference, that the quality of recruit has also fallen). The modern system of retention and bringing up to the required standard, as opposed to maintaining standards by weeding out, is seen by some as reducing the value of the qualification.
    d. comments that ratings were ill prepared for their first ship being poorly prepared for life onboard and low discipline standards. The Trainers were surprised by some of these comments.
    6. It was suggested that problems encountered with new ratings were, more often than not, to do with issues other than the ability or quality of the rating concerned. These included:
    a. The ship’s programme.
    b. Gapping. A significant problem, which can hinder employment, supervision, and task book progression.
    c.The standard or even lack of training/mentoring on board. SRs/LHs may lack Instructional Technique/Mentoring skills, be too busy or be unavailable.
    d.Faster promotion to LH/SR - results in a lack of experience to pass on.
    et was suggested that platform based ‘Lesson Plans/Teaching scripts’ for Task Book training could be of great benefit and that Instructional Technique training should be included in Command Team Training.

    7. Discipline appears to be an issue. Old style school discipline – including dress, conduct and punishments – were stronger and more conducive to Service Discipline. New style schooling means that Service discipline is totally alien to most. The introduction of LHs as trainers at training Establishments was welcomed and it was suggested that LHs should continue to play a prominent role in Phase 2 training.


    9. Notwithstanding the suggestions, Co-ordinators, are generally very content with the quality of newly trained recruits."
  9. That sounds a bit "Party Line" to me.
    Obviously asked the wrong people.

  10. Arthur Batchelor?
  11. So, this bloke is leaving the place where everyone is reasonably sane and trained etc etc etc to go to the place where all the 'lower standard' people are. The RN doesn't turn them into idiots. They already are that in many cases prior to arrival at the main gate.

    I hope 'the guy' you spoke to enjoys his life in the place where all these people come from. :bball: :dwarf:
  12. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Maybe I was just lucky- when I brought Iron Duke out of her las refit, 12 of my 16 MEMs/ ET(ME)'s or whatever they're called this afternoon, were first sea draft ratings. All completed their taskbooks well within the prescribed period & to a man were excellent at their jobs.


    Maybe they had a brilliant teacher, maybe we were lucky, maybe they were just as good as they ever were.

    I'm afraid I have little time for those that bemoan the trainees, we're meant to train them, not criticise or find fault. The odds are someone thought the same of them when they joined too.
  13. Contributor Mode


    Going back to you long post.

    1. Who were this team made up from? If MOD and RN personnel then they have a vested interest to produce the answer that Management wants.

    2. Have standards dropped? Not if you keep lowering the bar. As is obvious with A Level exams however much the Educational establishment deny this and no doubt most if not all Government Organizations do the same.

    Have the educational standards of the recruits dropped probably not. Have the standards set by the Navy for these people to pass along and up the system been lowered. That appears so, even to a person so long out of the mob as myself.

  14. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Contributor Mode, too:

    Fair points Nutty, you'll notice it hasn't said whether agree or disagree with the findings of the report! (It wasn't compiled by me, that's for sure- too many long words!)

    1. First & foremost I'll let the reader guess when the report was made, most would be rather surprised, it's not as recent as you may first think.

    2. The bar is neither highered or lowered but is continually re-evaluated to ensure that those passing the Recruiting Test [RT], (Unchanged since 1943 incidentally- unlike Secondary Education exams), have the intellectual ability to successfully complete phase two training. The object is not to have a pass/fail score as high as possible, but actually as low as possible to enable the broadest spectrum of individuals initially applying for a given trade, to be trained successfully.

    Understandably as systems become more complex, the training changes to suit this & correspondingly the required pass mark at RT for any given branch is altered accordingly, often upwards, sometimes downwards. This doesn't mean the standard of the recruits is lower, despite everyone's natural assumtion this is the case as it must have been considerably harder in their day. Just as a matter of interest, my AFCO tested 15 candidates for entry last week, 3 passed for entry into the Service.

    Many people forget that they were immature, unruly, scruffy, academically wanting etc., when they were 16 too.
  15. Ninja

    As I said about the educational standards of new recruits "Have the educational standards of the recruits dropped probably not."

    What appears to have dropped is the standard required to pass a majority thru the system. The cream will always rise to the top and gain promotion. The likes of 3 badge AB's did not exist in my day, they were a rarity, I never met or knew of one. With the greatly reduced size of the service un-qualified rates with long service will become a more common sight.

    But we are close enough in thinking Pusser will survive what ever they do to it. I have no doubt when asked, who ever is in the chair, will step up and do what has been required of us for over 300 years.


    PS like many I was a scruffy few days past 15 years old when I did my entry exam.
  16. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    It's interesting that, the phenomonem of 3 badge AB's- there were a few (about 6) on my first ship in 1981, two or three on my second ship, and none that I recall since- I actually think there is less nowadays than ever before.
  17. I hav'nt seen a 3 badge AB in years. When I joined up in 83 the navy seemed to be crawling wth them. Of course, its a lot harder to sit on your arse and not progress your career these days.
  18. I seem to remember NS , in the early 70's that if you wished to sign on for 22 after completion of your 9 you had to be LR or at least passed for it.
  19. Purple_twiglet

    Purple_twiglet War Hero Moderator

    Worth noting though that when you were going through basic training many years ago, there were doubtless a bunch of retired ex RN types moaning about how easy you had it and how standards had dropped.

    Its always getting easier and standards always drop, yet somehow our people perform to the same standards of excellence as their predecessors.
  20. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    You may well be right, possibly the only "3 badgers" about when I joined were ones that had lost their rates or ones that had not been recommended for advancement.

    You certainly don't see them anymore, there can't be many I'd have thought.

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