Is Israel Using disproportionate Force in Gaza?

If Israel were to stop using their far superior military capability would it stop the rocket attacks by hamas on their territory?

Just who are the villains or are both sides extreme nutters who just happen to worship the same god?
Not a clear black and white unfortunately.

HAMAS are far from squeaky clean but then neither is Israel and the regrettable thing is that it is civilians who are in the middle of it all.

Israel breached the recently ended 6-month ceasefire on numerous occasions with targeted assassinations of key insurgents (inside Gaza). You can argue that they were bad guys and got what they deserved but it doesn't hid the fact that their killings were breaches of the ceasefire.

The fact that HAMAS then resorted to a new wave of rocket attacks was folly in the extreme but faced with the ongoing embargo imposed by Israel plus the "ceasefire breaches" they didn't have many options.

I am not trying to take sides - just setting out the store as I see it.

For me the solution would be
Israel - Stop the air strikes, lift the embargo, seek renewed assistance from Egypt to broker a new agreement
Hamas - Stop the rocket attacks, restrain the extremist elements and get back to the table

Yes there IS a Santa Claus AND a Tooth Fairy and the Credit Crunch is just a bad dream and we will all wake up tomorrow and it will be Summer!
It will be interesting to see considering that the USA also has huge debts as to whether or not the new president will still be for pouring trillions of taxpayers dollars into Israel.
finknottle said:
It will be interesting to see considering that the USA also has huge debts as to whether or not the new president will still be for pouring trillions of taxpayers dollars into Israel.
Agreed, AIUI Bush is desperate to set his personal seal on a lasting solution - some hope! - but since he won't have to stand up and be counted for any investment in a peaceful solution that he may manage to squeeze in (and he still has a lot of pockets that Congress can't stop him from digging into) there is still time for some big bang spend.

On a more general historical note, the US has a track record of spending heavily on foreign issues even when suffering at home so I don't see the credit crunch being too much of a dampener on spending on international areas including foreign aid etc.
Bush is on vacation and this latest Israeli action is not considered important enough for him to be disturbed :pukel:

HAMAS are just terrorist beginners when compared to the Israelis. Israel has been committing war-crimes against the Palestinians for over 70 years and just to be clear, it was Israel who violated the latest ceasefire originally by attacking Gaza several weeks ago. Israel further undermined the ceasefire by placing Gaza under seige and cutting off all supplies. Hamas said it was unwilling to continue a ceasefire in which no bullets were fired, but 1.5 million Palestinians were slowly starved to death (would Israel ever accept such a situation?).
Israel has now killed over 300 people in Gaza in the last 2 days. Israel claims most of the victims are "part" of Hamas. However, that statement is meaningless. Israel, through the seige, has annihilated the economy of Gaza (90% of factories are closed). Since the only money comes through the government, anyone with a job, be it rocket-maker, soldier, cop, bureaucrat, doctor or teacher (the university was among the first targets) is considered "part" of Hamas, and so a target.

A little history:-

End of the First World War the victors split up the old Ottoman Empire. Britain was given a Mandate for Mesopotamia and a Mandate for Palestine.

After the Second World War a worn out Britain was forced out of Palestine by a series of terrorist attacks by the Zionists, most of whom were illegal immigrants. The terrorists went on to become senior politicians in the new Israeli government and the murdered British soldiers and their women and children who were also killed were forgotten.

Israel was on a roll, especially after securing access to unlimited funding and weaponry from the USA. More importantly Israel gained unlimited use of the US veto on the UN Security Council.

Israeli expansionism has continued unabated led by a superb public relations effort and a massive amount of spin in the Western media. The Palestinians have tried to appeal to the United Nations for over 60 years but the USA and sometimes Britain have conspired to veto every Resolution that has attempted to control Israeli behaviour.


Some of the vetos:-

1972 - The USA vetoes a United Nations resolution condemning Israeli air raids by Phantoms and Skyhawks on Lebanon and Syria. In al-Hama, a suburb of Damascus, houses are bombed indiscriminately and people are machine gunned as they run for cover. Up to 500 Lebanese and Syrian civilians are killed in the air attacks.

1973- The USA vetoes a United Nations resolution affirming the rights of Palestinians and calling on Israel to withdraw from occupied territories.

1976 - The USA vetoes four separate United Nations resolutions. The first condemns Israeli attacks against Lebanese civilians. The second condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories. The third calls for self-determination for the Palestinians. The fourth affirms Palestinian rights.

1978 - The USA votes against two United Nations resolutions. The first criticizing the living conditions of the Palestinians (110 to 2 with Israel). The second condemning the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories (97 to 3 Israel & UK).

1979 - The USA votes against five United Nations resolutions concerning Israel. The first calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel (121 to 3: the three are USA, Israel and Australia). The second demands that Israel desist from human rights violations (111 to 2 w/Israel). The third is a request for a report on the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries (120 to 2 w/Israel). The fourth offers assistance to the Palestinian people (112 to 3: the three are USA, Israel and Canada). The fifth discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Arab territories (118 to 2 w/Israel).

1980 - The USA votes against six United Nations resolutions concerning Israel and the Palestinians: The first requests Israel to return displaced persons (the vote is 96 to 3 with Canada being the third country). The second condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people (118 to 2). Three resolutions condemn Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories (votes: 118 to 2; 119 to 2; 117 to 2). The sixth endorses self-determination for the Palestinians (120 to 3 with Israel and Australia).

1981 - the USA votes against an astonishing 18 United Nations resolutions concerning Israel, including a demand that Israel cease excavations in areas of East Jerusalem considered by the United Nations to be part of the occupied territories. The vote is 114 to 2. Condemns Israel for bombing Iraqi nuclear installations (108 to 2). Two resolutions condemning Israeli policy regarding living conditions of the Palestinian people (109 to 2 and 111 to 2). To establish a nuclear weapon free zone in the Middle East (107 to 2). Demanding that Israel renounce possession of nuclear weapons (101 to 2). Two resolutions attempting to establish rights for the Palestinian people. The votes are 121 to 2, 119 to 3 (with Canada). To clarify the status of Jerusalem (139 to 2). Discusses Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip (141 to 2). Rights of displaced Palestinians to return to their homes (121 to 3 with Canada). Concerning revenues from Palestinian refugees' properties (117 to 2). Establishment of the University of Jerusalem for Palestinian refugees (119 to 2). Concerning Israeli human rights violations in occupied territories (111 to 2). Condemning Israel closing of universities in occupied territories (114 to 2) Opposes Israel's decision to build a canal linking the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. Concerning sovereignty over national resources in occupied Palestine and other Arab territories (115 to 2). Affirming the non-applicability of Israeli law over the occupied Golan Heights (121 to 2).

1982/1983 – Israel illegally invades the nation of Lebanon, leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, as well as the total destruction of the civilian infrastructure. The United Nations General Assembly condemns the massacre and declares it to be an act of genocide. The vote is 147 to 2 (Israel and the USA). An Israeli soldier shoots 11 Muslims worshipping on the Haram-Al-Sharif in East Jerusalem. The USA vetoes a United Nations resolution condemning the shooting. Another resolution calling for Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights (occupied in 1967) is also vetoed by the USA. Between 1982 and 1983, six separate United Nations resolutions condemning the Israeli invasion of Lebanon are vetoed by the USA. In addition, the USA refuses to invoke its own laws prohibiting Israeli use of American weapons except in self-defense.

1984 - The USA votes against numerous United Nations resolutions: Cooperation between the United Nations and the League of Arab States (voted by 134 to 2 with Israel); Condemns Israeli attack against Iraqi nuclear installation (106 to 2); On the elimination of racial discrimination (145 to 1); Affirming the rights of the Palestinian people (127 to 2); Convening a Middle East peace conference (121 to 3 including Canada); Prohibition of new types of weapons of mass destruction (125 to 1); Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons (84 to 1); Law of the sea (138 to 2); Israeli human rights violations in occupied territories (120 to 2); Condemns assassination attempts against Palestinian mayors (143 to 2).

1985 - The USA vetoes two separate United Nations resolutions condemning Israeli actions in Lebanon and the use of excessive force in the occupied territories.

1987 - The USA vetoes two United Nations resolutions. One condemning Israeli actions against civilians in Lebanon and the other calling on Israel to respect Muslim holy places.

1988 - the USA vetoes three United Nations resolutions condemning Israeli actions in Lebanon and urging a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon. Between 1983 and 1987, Israeli forces have killed over 50,000 people in Lebanon.

1988 - The USA vetoes two separate United Nations resolutions condemning Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories.

1989 - Three more similar resolutions are vetoed by the USA. The PLO wishes to appeal to the General Assembly of the United Nations but the leader, Yasser Arafat is refused a visa by the USA despite being recognized by over 60 countries. The Assembly meeting is moved to Geneva (Switzerland).

1990 - In Israel, troops open fire on Palestinian demonstrators in Jerusalem killing 21 and injuring 150. An Israeli soldier shoots and kills 7 laborers at Oyon Qara; 13 Palestinians are killed while demonstrating against the killings. The USA vetoes a United Nations resolution to send three Security Council observers into the area.

1995 - The USA vetoes a United Nations resolution confirming that the expropriation of land by Israel in East Jerusalem is invalid and in violation of United Nations resolutions and the Geneva Convention.

1997 - The USA votes against two United Nations resolutions that call on Israel to cease construction of settlements in East Jerusalem and the other occupied territories. One of the votes was by 130 to 2 (USA and Israel).
2001 - On 28th March the USA vetoes a United Nations resolution calling for the deployment of unarmed monitors to the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. This is the 73rd use of the veto in the United Nations by the USA since 1945. The vast majority of USA vetos were cast in support of Israel and South Africa during the apartheid era, and defending USA actions in Central America. Most of the vetos violate the spirit of United Nations Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Geneva Conventions, and other documents describing basic human rights and humanitarian standards. In December the USA vetoes a United Nations Security Council Resolution condemning Israel for acts of terror against civilians in the occupied territories.

2002 - Iain Hook, a 54-year-old United Nations relief worker is shot by an Israeli soldier in a clearly marked United Nations compound in Jenin. Israeli soldiers stop the ambulance sent to attend to the injured worker. The USA vetoes a United Nations resolution condemning the killing and the destruction of a warehouse belonging to the World Food Programme.

2003 - the USA vetos a United Nations resolution condemning the continued building of a fence by Israel on Palestinian land. Condemns a decision by the Israeli parliament to "remove" the elected Palestinian president, Yasser Arafat.

2004 - Condemns the assassination of Hamas leader, Sheik Ahmad Yassin. Condemns the Israeli incursion and killings in Gaza.

2006 - Calls for an end to Israeli military incursions and attacks on Gaza

Peace on Earth
Goodwill to all Men

Happy Trails :thumright:

We don't need all that history crap. Hammas are a terrorist gang full stop. They are supplied by Iran who has publicly said "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth". Hammas are puppets of Iran.

Ceasefire or no ceasfire, the rockets have continued to come Israels way and even though Israel has been restrained for the past 18 months, it has not stopped the rockets.

Israel is fully justified in it's action now and I hope they continue this time and don't listen to the busybodies of the world telling them to stop.

I don't remember hearing many condemnations from other countries about the continual bombardment of rockets by Hammas.

All that crap about civilians is propaganda. We saw pictures of them wiping blood on kids, tearing their clothes and then parading them in front of the worlds press as casualties.

They should shut the border and let them find jobs in their own country and then perhaps they will have more pride in it and not be conned by Hammas.
Repeat a lie often enough and it will be accepted as fact.

Iran has never asked for Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth, but that made a great headline. What Almadinajad actually said was:-

"The Iranian president was quoting an ancient statement by Iran's first Islamist leader, the late Ayatollah Khomeini, that 'this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,' just as the Shah's regime in Iran had vanished. He was not making a military threat. He was calling for an end to the occupation of Jerusalem at some point in the future. The 'page of time' phrase suggests he did not expect it to happen soon."

Historical crap :bball:

RM :thumright:
Granted the Iraelis are not blameless in a lot of what goes on there, but really if you were in their sandals, could you really blame them?

Arab and Iranian dictators oppress their subjects, sponsor half of the world’s major terror groups and imperil Israel, the Middle East’s sole democracy. 360 million people in Arab states and Iran are entitled to the same freedom and prosperity enjoyed by Europeans, Americans and Israelis.

The Middle East includes 7 out of 19 of the most repressive regimes in the world and their weapons of mass destruction. It is also the hotbed of Jihad (Holy War), an ideology of world domination. The scourge of international terrorism now reaches far beyond the United States and Israel. Half of the world’s major terror groups are Arab and Iranian. 5 out of the world's 7 state-sponsors of terrorism are Arab and Iranian.

In Arab and Iranian dictators' propaganda there is almost no problem that is not caused by the existence of Israel, the Middle East’s sole democracy. Most of the Arab and Muslim states do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

The freest Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East live in Israel. The Israeli government is the only one in the Middle East that is elected by free citizens -- including Arabs and Muslims.

Israel is a free, Western country, which recognizes the individual rights of its citizens (such as their right to liberty and freedom of speech). It uses military force only in self-defense. The enemies of Israel, by contrast, are state sponsored terrorist organizations and dictatorships. They do not recognize the individual rights of their own subjects, much less those of the citizens of Israel. They initiate force indiscriminately in order to retain and expand their power.

Israel's achievements are vast and have no parallel in any other country of comparable size or age. They have been reached against an unremitting threat of violence, war, terror and delegitimation that might have defeated any lesser people. In almost every sphere – economic development, technology, integration of immigrants and the maintenance of democracy – Israel should today be internationally heralded as a model for others to emulate.

Above all, Israel has pursued peace. In a mere 10 years it made a cognitive leap for which it would be hard to find a precedent. The "peace process" whose main watchword is "territories for peace", involves a paradox whereby a minuscule democracy is being forced to provide its totalitarian enemies - scores of times its size - the only thing it lacks: territory. In exchange, the surrounding tyrannies are being asked to provide the one and only thing that they lack: peace. In 1990 Arafat's PLO was a proscribed terrorist organization. By 2000 the Israeli prime minister had offered a Palestinian state in the whole of Gaza and 97 per cent of the West Bank, with east Jerusalem as its capital. Students of international politics hail the European Union as a triumph of peace over war. How many are aware that the attitudinal changes that took France and Germany centuries, were achieved in Israel in a single decade?

The case for Israel should be apparent even to thoroughgoing supporters of the Palestinians. Who else has offered them a genuine future? Egypt? Jordan? Syria? Lebanon? The Gulf States? It takes only a cursory glance at the history of the Middle East to realize that for the most part, neighboring dictatorships have ruthlessly exploited the Palestinians for their own ends with callous indifference to the consequences. Israel, alone in the Middle East, has attempted to construct, with and for the Palestinians, a viable and peaceful future.

Israel's strategy of winning Palestinian hearts and minds failed because Israeli carrots could never overcome the intimidation applied by Palestinian terrorist regime's sticks.

Fundamentally, Israel is the target of these terrorist organizations and despotic regimes precisely because of its virtues:

Oasis of freedom in a desert of Arab and Iranian tyranny
Oasis of independent judiciary in a desert of Arab and Iranian arbitrariness
Oasis of women rights in a desert of Arab and Iranian women discrimination

If my home was being attacked daily by rocket fire, damn straight I would want my Government to act and act accordingly, and if it means making it so that these attacks never happen again, then so be it...
Bergen said:
Repeat a lie often enough and it will be accepted as fact.

Iran has never asked for Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth, but that made a great headline. What Almadinajad actually said was:-

"The Iranian president was quoting an ancient statement by Iran's first Islamist leader, the late Ayatollah Khomeini, that 'this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,' just as the Shah's regime in Iran had vanished. He was not making a military threat. He was calling for an end to the occupation of Jerusalem at some point in the future. The 'page of time' phrase suggests he did not expect it to happen soon."

Historical crap :bball:

RM :thumright:
Splitting hairs - "Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime"

Same difference, it's what was meant. The western world knows the ****** for what he is, he want's to overthrow the Christian western world.


War Hero
Book Reviewer
If Hamas are shying rockets into Israel, Israel has every right to do whatever to stop it, it's a clear issue of self-defence. If it breaks a few bones in Gaza, tough. Israel is a democracy and therefore needs all our support against the mediaeval barbarism opposed to it.

I note the BBC's entirely biased pro-Arab stance on this.
For those who don't know I think a history lesson is in order, it assists one to make a balanced judgement as to just how the current nasty situation has come about. Of course there is the knee jerk reaction of sympathy for Israel which is understandable after they have suffered 2000 years of persecution but their hands are far from clean and people should at the very least consider that fact.
A bit of proportion is required. When we the Brits had to put up with the atrocities in London/Brighton/Birmingham/Warrington et all, did the Government lay waste to all Catholic Communities in Northen Ireland. Did we attempt to take out Irish Insurgents at the cost of civilian innocents.
The rocket attacks on Israel, if by a major fluke are successful, how many Isrealis are killed, compare that to the amount of palestinians killed in one aerial bombing of the Gaza Strip. Now bombing has come on a bit since Harris but it still is indiscriminate in who it kills.
The Arab world needs to recognise Isreals right to existence, but the Isreal needs to temper their reaction to pretty feeble attacks from Hamas.
I always think the Troubles and the PIRA are a good analogy on these occasions. Had we used Israeli tactics, the Divis Flats would have been a series of smoking piles of rubble. Bombing the people of Belfast to oblivion wouldn't have defeated the PIRA any more than bombing the people of Gaza will defeat Hamas.

The Zionists see a God given right to dominate the former Palestine and will not tolerate any interference with that aim; certainly not from the Palestinian Untermenschen. Interesting when the jackboot is on the other foot, isn't it.
angry_mac said:
A bit of proportion is required.
I have to disagree :)
I think Israel are doing the only thing that they can, regarding retaliation.
I think that they have to come down like a ton of bricks on those that attack them, or it will only get much worse. The thing is, HAMAS are hurting just as many or more of "their own" than they are Israelies.

Don't get me wrong, the whole "situation" is frankly sickening but I certainly don't have the answers to it, and reading this thread, NO-ONE on this site does, thats for sure!
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