Iraq , your opinions please.!

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by PAVEWAY_3, Apr 2, 2007.

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  1. We all seem to have different opinions on Iraq. I think lots are based on what some have seem on the TV ,and a few of the older more learned members of Rum Ration base there opinions on there experience of the middle east. If all you can do on this thread is slag off Blair or Bush then maybe this thread isnt the one for you.

    I have 3 tours of the place under my webbing belt and my opinion of the place has dramtically changed over the 3 years or so that I have spent in the place. My frustration and anger is aimed more at the corrupt local government and the local tribal leaders than any of the polititions in the western world.The reasons , as far as I was concerned for the invasion into Iraq was that Saddam had WMD's and he had not shown any proof that he had got rid of them. Of course oil was a major factor as well .I am sure many of the posters on this site will disagree with me and my opinions ,but please as long as your points are based on fact and not what you have read in the press or have seen on TV ,well no one can argue.
    I have more input into this thread but I think i will leave for now,just to see if there is any other input.
  2. Given your experiences, what do you think the way forward for Iraq is now? Has Britain done all it can (militarily) for Iraq?

    Personally I am doubtful Iraq had WMDs; Bush would not have sent 130,000 American boys to Iraq if he thought there was any danger of them being attacked with WMD.
  3. I think we have done as much as we can for them, We could do more but to be honest I dont think they (the iraqis) are grateful and we should value our armed forces lives more. As for WMD I am sure they had them.But if they did it would never be realised.
  4. I was in fovour of the invasion and would repeat it (with the benefit of hindsight improve on our post invasion approach) now.

    I think the current media has as much to blame as the invading forces in allowing excessive civilian losses. The British forces there now are heros and are deserving of this nation's support.

    I am also of the opinion that all must be done now to enable us to withdraw from southern iraq in the next 18 month to supplement the forces we currently have in Afghanistan.
  5. This is what we were informed of when my last ship went out there, as far as I am concerned the notion of WMD came after that.

    I was watching the Euro News last week and an article came up that Bush was over thrown by his PM lot to withdraw troops from Iraq. No surprise came when he announced this was to be binned!

    I know withdrawing all troops could cause issues but keeping them will do the same also, this is a conflict that can take years to end and to be honest, without the Iraqi Gov. setting up some kind of peace force, nothing will change. I think that the country it's self has now relied on the fact that the UK and USA are their peace type force and are falling back on this.

    So really, the question could fall down to, does Bush want to stay or go? If he goes, he loses some kind of power, if he stays, he gains.
  6. Lots of Iraqi people want us (the US and BRITS) to do the dirty work in Iraq.They want schools built we build them, they want sewerage plants we sort it. These actions are never shown in the press. All you get in the media is death and destruction. You dont even get the deaths of british soldiers in the press now.Ok lets blame Bush and Blair for why we went into the country in the first place.I know there are more reasons for our entry but they are not to be aired on these means.The thing is we have done our bit to help Iraq rebuild its self. Whatever you may hear about the place whilst sat at home watching TV,its a better place now than it was under Saddam. Well it could be much much better, if the goverment agencies ,the police and other officials in the country took responsibility for there own country instead of demanding us to do it.

    This a massive subject ,and Iraq is a country full of condradictions.I can give you an example of these. In Basra rocket and mortar teams would engage British military bases most nights ,a lot of these IDF teams did it because they wanted to kill Brits. Yet some did it because they were worried the Brits were going to pull out,so in thier wisdom they decided that if they engaged the Brit forces the Brits would think''urm not all is well maybe we should stay for a while longer'' thus ensuring more British money would be pumped into projects for the iraqi people. I kid you not.
  7. There will be civil war in Iraq. It is the nature of the beast and will happen once foreign troops have left their soil.
    So let us pull out our troops and let this inevitable situation happen. All we are doing is delaying the event and letting more people die, both Iraqi and British/American. Yes there will be bloodshed but this is the nature of the Arab, strongest rules and the Western world will not change their politics.
  8. Bit like the old treatment for crabs. A tot poured over the affected area----then a handful of sand-----crabs came out --got drunk and stoned each other to death !!!
  9. PAVEWAY-3, I would be interested to know just what you think we have done for Iraq? As far as I am concerned we all know Saddam was a bad bastard but things are much worse now than they ever were when he was in control. Millions of dollars that were set aside for reconstruction have mysteriously disappeared; the country is awash with innocent blood with the death toll now creeping up to 1 million. We should never have poked our noses in there in the first place and the best thing we could do is to pull our ASAP. Hopefully when Gordon takes over a date will be set for this withdrawal. The real tragedy will be when we do pull out and we will that all the coalition and innocent Iraqi lives lost will have been for nowt.
  10. If we are honest with each other this whole situation was bound to happen - the war I mean. Holding short the first time only delayed the inevitable. I firmly believe we should be there, but like most others there is no obvious exit strategy. Very easy for us to get out, but do we then turn a blind eye if civil war breaks out, Iran gets involved, and are forced to deploy back to a GW3?

    We have a responsibility to sort it out, not by imposing our way of life on them (which I feel is a key - I mean they have never known democracy!!) but by working with them - am aware I have rose tinted spectacles!
  11. What have we (the US/UK) done for the people of Iraq. Well I think the best people to ask about that are the people of Iraq. When I say that I mean the normal people in Iraq not the ones selected to talk on camera.
    I have spoken to plenty of Iraqi's that are extemely grateful for our presense in Iraq. Its the officials and dodgy policemen you avoid .Once again I could waffle on for ages but this is an open forum ,however I shall give you a few examples.

    a) A small village north west of the city As Samarwah, we turned up to have a chat with the village shiek.We met him and found he had litrally all of the right hand side of his face missing. He explanned he had got on the wrong side of the Ba'ath party because he was attempting to find members of his village that had gone missing (prior to 2003).His village has been desimated by saddams henchmen.

    b) Op Minor which was the British op in the western desert used to dig up and repatriate bodies of both Iraqi's and Kuwaiti's killed and buried under saddams orders.

    Just a few boring stories to you lot, but to me they are the object of my frustration when ever I hear people giving there opinions on how wrong the war in Iraq is .If your opinion is based on experience then fine I can respect that ,but if yours is based on watching sky TV, reading (by our own admission) crooked press.Well what can I say. There is one more point I would like to raise.Its fine and dandy saying''how wrong this war is '' or ''we should get the troops out now'' .Just think how a poor soldier/sailor/marine /airman feels when he/she is working like mad to help another country ,thousands of miles from home in constant danger .Then he or she reads some of the ill informed balls people sat at home in a nice comfy chair with proper knifes and forks ,not having to worry about rocket attacks go on about .Please attempt to know what your talking about before you waffle amymore.

    Rant over
  12. Seems to me P3 that your argument has 3 planks:-

    1. We invaded Iraq because it had WMD.

    2. We have done lots to help the Iraqis.

    3. They are a bunch of ingrates.

    Let's examine the first part of your argument. Iraq had no WMD. It had no delivery systems for WMD. It had no capability to produce WMD. The USA knew this perfectly well, prior to the invasion, as did Britain. They had been advised by the UN that the Iraqi regime had had no WMD capability since 1996. Hans Blix, Scott Ritter, Mohamed el-Baridi and US Ambassador Joe Wilson had all argued that the US/UK assertions were false. Hussein Karmel, the head of Saddam's weapons programme who had defected had also confirmed to the CIA that all aspects of the Iraqi WMD programme had been dismantled and destroyed. This was all later confirmed by the US Iraq Study Group who spent a year and a half scouring Iraq and found absolutely nothing.

    The Bliar was perfectly aware that the real reason for invading was a desire for regime change and that this was not a legal basis for military action. The Downing Street Memo proves that he was prepared to assist the USA in fabricating evidence to create a false justification to invade.

    "Military action is seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD But the intelligence and the facts are being fixed around policy."[/i]

    In order to circumvent the checks and balances of the USA's own intelligence systems Bush and Cheney set up unofficial back-channels that funnelled false Israeli intelligence and neocon fantasies and recycled them as proven fact. The hysteria was pumped up by the press and a country that was fully contained, under UN sanctions, was no possible threat to the West, was invaded.

    P3 you participated in an illegal invasion of a country based on a lie.


    Let's examine the next part of your argument. We have now illegally invaded a country that was no threat to us and we find that we have no post-war plans in place. Just a great big vacuum. At this stage the United Kingdom had absolutely no influence on US policy. L. Paul Bremmer completed a programme of de-Ba'athification that started the fires and we were caught like fools in the middle of it. If you are an Iraqi professional sitting in Bagdad in the middle of a de-facto civil-war, with no job, no water, no sewage, no electricity and with 655,000 of your countrymen dead as a direct consequence of the illegal invasion you may wonder just how much as been done for you by P3 and his mates.


    The final part of your argument I have to agree with. The Iraqis have not been appreciative of the attentions of the United Kingdom. Just how ungrateful they are will probably not become apparent for a generation.

  13. Dear P3,

    Point taken, but what else can those of us sat here do? Whilst some media reports are wild distortions and half truths, such distortions are not simply coming from the anti-war lot. What do think TB and the Labour party have been doing on the news for the last three years!

    Many of us on here read a variety of sources representing the political spectrum from left to right (what ever those terms mean nowadays) plus the occassional academic work of repected figures, some of whom have a track record in international and war journalism. Of course, the Armed Forces might need to take some of the blame when it comes to poor reporting. When journos are embedded, told what to write, prevented from going places, etc they might well begin to start speculating and shit stirring. They have a job to do, after all, even if we don't like it much. On the other hand, what about the BBCs Ben Andover who did a great little film about Royal's Bde Recce? He was only able to film it by hitching a ride along with the Afghan army and then joing Royal when the gun fire began. Give journos access and they might not speculate so much.

    Another issue, of course, is spin. I know and respect your views on wmd but I believe you've been spun too. There is plenty of evidence that this little war was thought up by the Neo-cons for 'The New American Project' and TB signed up for it in 2002 whilst at Camp David.

    Until certain memos come to light there is much we won't know for sure.

    As for a solution? I can understand that tps might feel pissed off when they try to good works and not be appreciated for it by either Iraqis or the great British public but the real issue as we know is ethnic and religious civil war. Can we stop that? No. If we stay will it get worse? Yes. If we leave will it get worse? Yes. If we threaten to leave will it get worse? Yes ... The place is a powder keg of contradictions. We lit the touch paper and now we don't have a clue about what bto do next. But sure as eggs are eggs, we will leave and there is going to be ethnic cleansing and even greater bloodshed. Forget all the bull about democracy, the Gov are already conniniving in shifting poluations about, and as GR said the idea of imposing democracy from without is an oxymoron.

    In sum, I'll try not to write bollocks about the place because I'm not out there. But as long as I read a range of material, watch more than Fox News, read more than MOD news, listen to you guys and take a critical stance to ALL of it, I hope I'll come away with a measured and critical summation of the the state of play out there.

    Sometimes the best way to support the troops is to get them back home, and I hope you all come back soon.

    Kind regards, Harry
  14. wet_blobby

    wet_blobby War Hero Moderator

    P-3, whats the point of offering an opinion if by your own admission ex booties like myself should shut the fcuk up because we aint out there? or is that democracy nower days?

  15. Well said Mr. B.

    I have the greatest contempt for politicians who use false patriotism in these situations. By keeping our men and women in Iraq we are simply delaying the inevitable. We have made a great contibution to the present mess in Iraq and we are deluding ourselves if we think that by remaining we can possibly improve the situation.

    The biggest 'problem' with most people on RR is that they are patriotic in the finest sense of the word in an age where patriotism has been hijacked by spin-doctors and phoneys. We have a generation of politicians who have no concept of military service, who are prepared to commit young men into harm's way for poorly defined reasons and with little consideration for either their well-being or for any long term strategy.

  16. Agree with you on this one Bergen.
    We are no longer helping the situation, perhaps it would be better to withdraw and let nature take its course.
  17. P3, You ask for opinions then give us a lecture from your font of all knowledge, your comments are your opinion and have no more or less authority than any other members. What do you want I ask myself, that we should all wind our necks in and listen to the oracle?
  18. Sorry Wet_blobby ,I am a little weak at getting my point across .I respect anyone that has done there bit in the forces.I must admit i do confuse myself when I go into Tx mode in the midst of a thread.No offence ment ar all . .ex booties/ex soldiers/ex sailors are always welcome to add to a thread,because they tend to have a level headed attitude to this subject .Once again sorry if i have rubbed anyone up the wrong way.Perhaps I should stick to conversation as my communication medium .
  19. wet_blobby

    wet_blobby War Hero Moderator

    no worries mate

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