Independent listening to cobblers

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by wave_dodger, Mar 12, 2016.

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  1. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

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  2. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Whether he is right or not, I have no idea. But one thing that does puzzle me is that if what he is saying is true and the UK has no viable weapons system to cover a particular threat now, then the odds are we didn't when he served either.

    It is a pity that concerns regarding military vulnerabilities only appear to be voiced by retired personnel rather than be publicly aired when they were serving.
  3. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

    Every year we run capability audits we work out where our biggest threats and deficiencies are and address them.

    But it's ok a random bunch of oddballs who ceased serving eons ago can express an opinion that they know better.

    When you're serving you're exposed to the realities of funds, deliverability, threat. When you've left you can play to a wider audience in the hope some of those constraints are removed.

    As it happens the T45 are being upgraded (above an existing ability) largely because our Chinese chums love Anti Area Denial weapons like the DF21 which is a ballistic threat to carriers.

    Daeish....... I think not
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  4. The man saw quite a bit of sea time. Apollo Brave Brighton Broadsword Minerva Puncheston Tartar. You know it's impossible to voice dissent when serving. Had he done so he would never had made Commander. He's entitled to his opinion--right or wrong.
  5. Not EONs, Commander Graham Edmonds left the mob in 2007, currently a member of the Phoenix Think Tank and apparently a Defence Researcher
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  6. Born 1947. Educated at Repton School and Britannia Royal Naval College Dartmouth. RN Service 1966-2007 as a seaman officer and above water warfare specialist, including active service in the South Atlantic in 1982, Salalah 1970, Cod War 1973, West Indies 1975. Served in HMS Ships Torquay, Tartar, Chawton, Puncheston, Walkerton, Apollo, Minerva, Brighton, Broadsword and Brave. Commanded HMS Cambridge and RN Gibraltar. Mod in DESO and SP Pol. SMOPS as Tac (EW) and Cdr (A). NATO CinCSouth J3/J7 and Head of Navy Ops. RNSC in 1979. Served on the Board of UKNDA 2007-2009 and remains a UKNDA member. Has a deep professional interest and expertise in defence affairs and distributes a private e-mail newsletter on worldwide Defence and Security issues to UKNDA members, academics, politicians, defence correspondents, friends, colleagues and former shipmates. Chairman of City of Plymouth Athletics Club, Defence Researcher 2007 - to date, a Director of Armada Athletics Community Interest Company, a member of the Sea Power Centre, Exeter Flotilla and the Phoenix Think Tank. Married with 8 children (6 Adult, one a Commander in RNZN)
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  7. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

    In the world we live in it's eons and before he left he spent a long time (FTRS) in various gash jobs such as bringing us AFPS 05. Absolutely entitled to an opinion, but if you're going to get quoted in the press at least be credible and realistic.
  8. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

    Billy, thanks, I actually know him very well socially. I served with both his Daughter and his Niece, and I worked with him (albeit a while ago).
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
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  9. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

    I beg to differ, it's how you do it.
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  10. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Quite agree, that's what many believe.

    My point is that people should be able to speak out whilst serving. In these days of supposed enlightenment and freedom of information, careers ought not be held to ransom and censure because people dare to raise points they genuinely believe to be valid. We should be open to constructive criticism and rather than chastise and threaten, we should be investigating to see if the issues raised are indeed valid.
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  11. " A superb officer who should have progressed further--Had he not been blessed with a refreshing outspokenness"
  12. So, exactly like Rum ration and Arrse then?

    In 2007 we still had Harriers, CVS, the 45s were still two years away, it was only Herrick 6 and Telic 8, Des Browne was the Secretary of State for Defence under a Labour government, the Iranians were gifting suits to our RIB crews and Time magazine voted Vladimir Putin man of the year.

    2007 is nearly a decade since, that is Eons in defence terms. It's a generation ago.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
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  13. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    That really does give a cracking illustration of precisely 'what a difference a day makes' in terms of evolving military capability.
  14. Sticking your head above the parapet, or entering the political arena, whilst still serving almost certainly means end of career for very senior officers. Look what the government did to our lads in Afghan, in terms of sending them in without the proper kit and equipment. All the senior officers knew, but almost all just obeyed the politicians. I recall a couple who objected (did a colonel resign?); end of the road for them.
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  15. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Yep, a Royal Marine Lt Col, amongst others, certainly stood by their convictions and resigned.

    That said, it takes a person of extremely high moral conviction to give up their job to demonstrate their strength of feeling. There will inevitably be those who are leaving anyway but use their departure as an opportunity to highlight their own particular concerns, with impunity with regard their career direction.

    Our last RN CDS was a person who had the bottle to speak his mind but sadly the reverberations still affect his potential nautical successors, such is the backlash at ministerial level & within the civil service who much prefer those who acquiesce.
  16. And of course it is impossible for an Ex member of the Armed Forces to keep abreast of current developments in military hardware.

    W_D implied that the Cdr was an Oddball who had not served in Eons, I only pointed out that this was an incorrect statement. just for information, did you bother to look at my link to the Phoenix Think Tank? Not exactly what you would call a group of oddballs.

    And regarding nearly a decade being Eons in defence terms, how right you are, the type 45s might be a capable ship (when all the bugs finally get ironed out with the propulsion) but apart from them, we have far less capability to project power than we did in 2007
  17. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer

    In planning terms it's two epochs. Two whole cycles of threat/capability. Two parliaments and two SDSRs.
  18. wave_dodger

    wave_dodger War Hero Book Reviewer


    All things are relative. 'Phoenix' add very little value and carry less credence.

    Marginal there. Never convinced a few SHAR and AEW added that much. That said our RFTG and CAR capabilities are probably far better.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016
  19. Your

    Would suggest that you though him an Oddball considering you posted the original link

    As for not being convinced a 'few SHAR and AEW not adding that much' I would beg to differ, but that's not all we have lost, our ASW is a shadow of what it was.

    But your claim our RFTG and CAP are far better, I may be wrong, but Response Force Task Grouping and Combat Air Patrol are my interpretations of your acronyms, if correct, we currently do not have the capabilities of the latter away from RAF/Allied air cover, and without the latter, any response force is at the mercy of a capable air force. The T45 may have a state of the art Air Defence system, but we only have 6 of them and they currently have a major power problem, and as we have no dedicated ASW platforms, any Task Force put together by the UK to go against a modern antagonist would be at serious risk.

    May I remind you of the motto of the RN, Si vis pacem, para bellum, I am very much afraid successive governments were not aware of it

  20. Indeed, Ninja.

    " do the fighting, I do the talking."

    A pity that doing the talking did not include actually sorting out the problems in Libya.
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