Hi All,
Once again this post is intended to be read by everyone, with tags being used to indicate whom comments I'm referring to.
Before I get into the core of my post, I owe
@BreathingOutOnTheWayUp and
@Dusty70 a big apology for the lateness of this reply. I see that it has been 5 weeks since you wrote to me. I mentioned in my previous post that I have been very busy with moving to a different city, what I didn't explain was, I am physically disabled. The delay in writing this post is largely due to being busy advertising for, and interviewing more caregivers. Nevertheless, being busy is no excuse for rudeness, sorry. As a side note, if I was able-bodied I would've enlisted in the Royal New Zealand Navy when I was 18.
@BreathingOutOnTheWayUp: Thanks for that very entertaining story about those Middies and the review Bob. I laughed out loud from beginning to end as I read it!
@Dusty70: Thanks for your reply. It was a good idea to give Midshipmen temporary authority over work parties in order to give them leadership practice before they were promoted and (effectively) given their commissions. I will treat that bit of information as gospel.
Still
@Dusty70: As for saluting them, I've heard of the expression "Salute the rank not the man!"; but I honestly thought that applied to commissioned officers only, which (in the time period we're talking about) excluded Midshipmen. I admit that my understanding on the matter could be totally inaccurate. Also, you say you (and presumably your fellow ratings at the time) "...never, ever, called them Sir!!", while I'm not questioning you per se (more on that in the next paragraph), I would've thought saluting Midshipmen would be
*worse* than calling them Sir. My reasoning is as follows: I was taught a salute is always an indirect salute to the Sovereign, because the officer being saluted carries the Sovereign's authority. Since Midshipmen (in the time period we're discussing) didn't hold commissions from the Sovereign, I don't see how Midshipmen could be said to be carrying the Sovereign's authority. I think this is why Warrant Officers
are called Sir, but
not saluted; their Warrants give them enough status to set them apart from the rest of the ratings, but without a commission, saluting them seems meaningless and improper. Having said all of that, I know that there are many aspects of military protocol that are not always logical and my reasoning could be way off base.
Now we get to the heart of my problem, contradictions.
@WreckerL says that Midshipmen
were called Sir but
not saluted (just like present day Warrant Officers),
@Dusty70 says that it was the other way around, without any clarifying statements,
@dapperdunn's post suggests that Midshipmen were
neither saluted
nor called Sir and
@BreathingOutOnTheWayUp's post implies that Midshipmen were
both saluted
and called Sir (his very entertaining dit mentioned saluting a group of Middies and calling them "Gentlemen" --which is sometimes considered to be the plural of Sir). Obviously, you can't all be correct. I hope I don't sound like a whining ingrate, I do appreciate all your responses in this thread; it's just that without a consistent account of the protocol regarding Midshipmen (in the modern days -- but before they were commissioned), I don't know how to be accurate in my planned stories. In the next paragraph, I'll talk about, and get your advice on, where to go from here.
Maybe you could all take a look at my understanding of what each of you meant in your explanations to me? Perhaps having each of the combinations of whether to Sir or not to Sir/salute or not to salute laid out in a single paragraph will jog everyone's memory and help to form a consensus as to which protocol was correct. If that doesn't work and total accuracy can't be achieved, should I just pick an arbitrary protocol, or would that be disrespectful to the Royal Navy? Lastly (assuming it's not too disrespectful to the R.N.), if you were writing a story and you weren't 100% sure what the correct protocol was, which of the following protocols would you pick for your story:
1. Midshipmen
are addressed as Sir and Ma'am, but
not saluted (just like present day Warrant Officers).
2. Midshipmen
are addressed as Sir and Ma'am
and saluted (just like commissioned officers).
3. Midshipmen
are saluted, but
not addressed as Sir and Ma'am.
4. Midshipmen are
neither addressed as Sir and Ma'am
nor saluted (just like ratings).
Thank you all very much for your time. I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Cheers,
Steven
