If MOD can't keep a lid on T45 costs…

Discussion in 'The Fleet' started by Oil_Slick, Dec 11, 2007.

Welcome to the Navy Net aka Rum Ration

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial RN website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. BAE shareholders will do well so we should rejoice!

  2. Only if they buy OTS

    0 vote(s)
  3. Paint the Isle of Wight ferry grey - Job done!

    0 vote(s)
  1. What chance of delivering the next generation of Frigates this side of doomesday and under £1 billion a copy?
  2. Frigates ..... what are those?

    BAE could probably make a ferry cost a billion with out to much difficulty.

    God, I not even in the navy yet and I'm already a cynical b*gger :roll:
  3. Just to bring things into some perspective I have just looked at the costs for the DDG 1000 programme in the US which is their new surface combatant.

    Through to 2013 they will spend some $27Bn and have committed for 7 ships with the sailaway cost of the final ship being just over $2Bn, and that does not include the missiles which will be ordered on a separate account.

    I suspect if we wanted to join in they would be wanting something close to $4Bn a copy, can we afford that?
  4. DDG1000 is a big fvckoffsized armed to the teeth 15,000 ton 'cruiser'.

    Were talking Frigates here so compare like for like.

    The Yanks have very deep pockets… We don't.

    (Edited to add:

    Actually even £1.9 billion quid ain't so bad if you compare the firepower and capabilities of a DDG1000 with that of two T45's at about the same cost. Use the cost the USN is paying for them, @£900 million and compare it with what a T45 is going to cost us… @£650 million and it's even more embarrasing.

    £650 million for a lightly armed 7,000 ton DDG or £900 million for a armed to the teeth 15,000 ton CG… Yep, BAE is offering us good value there all right.)
  5. wet_blobby

    wet_blobby War Hero Moderator

    I doubt very much that the Navy will get any more new ships out of this govt.

    The Navy is bottom of the pile in defence spending at the moment and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

    Interesting article that sums things up.


    At least the pubs in Guz and Pompey will make some money.

  6. I'd agree blobs.

    This is probably a procurement fiasco too far and the dream of a shiny new 21st Century Navy is going to remain just that… a dream.
  7. Hopefuly the next frigates should be more reasonably priced as they are insisting on off-the-shelf technology rather than developing cutting edge tech.
  8. Have a read of Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs by Lewis Page. T45 is just one of a long line of procurement balls-ups. I was all for buying British until I read this book. BAe are kicking the arse out of the MoD - not just the RN. They own the whole British based military industrial complex. While I am all for safe guarding British jobs, this is a step too far.

    It's a reet riveting read.
  9. This link gives a good summary of the difficulties facing those who have to decide how we are going to replace T22/23, Its easy to condemn the MoD but the task aint easy.

  10. Au contraire - the task is a piece of p1ss, technically. It's persuading the treasury that warships really do cost over £300M a pop these days thats the problem.....
  11. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    I concur; despite my reservations about PAGE, the book is well-researched and referenced, and every serviceman should read it; certainly makes one aware of what goes on 'upstairs' when the adults decide on what toys we get to play with... :oops:
  12. sgtpepperband . Did you write that while keeping a straight face?
  13. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    POL: Have you read it? Or are you another armchair critic..? Like I said, I think the guy is a tool and seems to have an underlying ulterior motive, but the information and POVs in the book are enlightening. And very much in line with the mood of this thread.
  14. BAW could make a rowing boat cost a mill. The politicians will blame the RN and the admirals if, god forbid, something like the Falklands happens again
  15. drunken-engineer, sgtpepperband, I sincerely hope you 2 are jesting. Whilst I am certainly no fan of BAeS, Page is one of the most ill informed military commentators around and an excellent example of the old adage 'a little knowledge is dangerous'. :pukel:

  16. Guys, I was chatting to a guy from T45IPT the other day, and although the first two hulls are quite expensive, for a number of reasons; some the RNs fault, some the MODs and many BAE's, now that the production line is running it is getting quite efficient and making considerable savings on the first two. He saidf that if we order nos 7 and 8 we would get them for alittle over the cost of number 1. IF we were, by a miracle to get 9 - 12 they would be pretty economical. IF we now delay 7 and 8 and then order them in a few years they will costs as much as if not more than 1 and 2 as the production line will need starting up.

    He did say that one of the key reasons they are costing so bloody much is that we went for a while ordering bugger all - so BAEquite rightly ended up losing much of their expertise. IF we seriously want cost effective purchasing, one of the things we could do is actually ensure that we engineer a continuous production line thereby retaining the limited efficiences we can obtain.
  17. I would go a stage further, I suspect that Page actually knows the answers and understands the system, it's just he knows that his audience will always believe him rather than the truth. Shit sticks and he knows it.
  18. The reality is that most UK programmes ever get past what the Yanks call Low Rate Inititial Production (LRIP). They are well aware that the transition from design to production is a phase where production costs are high as the process is learnt, and costs are high as the design cock ups are ironed out. The septics do expect production in LRIP to cost many times more than the series production cost and on this basis the T45 costs are perhaps predictable and possibly we do a bit better than our transatlantic cousins whi invest much more in the design phase than we do. Mind you if you are going to buy 50 rather than our 5 then there is more value in that investment. Having worked on UK/US programmes our engineering is both cheaper and every bit as innovitive as theirs just we don't often make the best use of it. Finally you must remember that when we buy in the UK a significant proportion of the costs goes back to us the taxpayer as tax colected on the wages and profits, something that would not happen if you bought from the US, and there would be further costs in unemployemnt and lost export sales. The net result would be that not only would we buy less your taxes would go up as well, so perhaps the grass is as ever not as green as it looks.
  19. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Much like the party political line then? :?

  20. SO it's OK to buy either the wrong, not enough of, or even end up buying no kit on the basis that it's OK because we are subsidising jobs in the north and Scotland…

    And 'export sales'… Harumpf! BAE and 'export sales' of ships seems to be a contradiction in terms.

Share This Page