Identity Cards

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by janner, Mar 29, 2006.

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  1. janner

    janner War Hero Book Reviewer

    Is there any point in having ID cards that are not compulsay?

    LONDON (Reuters) - The government is set to introduce national identity cards to combat fraud and terrorism from 2008 after the House of Lords agreed a compromise deal with the Labour party on Wednesday.

    The planned biometric cards, which will carry fingerprint, iris and face recognition technology, are the world's most ambitious, say experts, and could be used as a model for other countries, including

    the United States.
    Critics say they are unworkable and costly and argue they infringe civil liberties.

    The compromise, over the degree of compulsion, will be a relief to Prime Minister Tony Blair, who has been dogged by sleaze allegations and questions over his future in the last few weeks.

    His authority has been waning since he said he would not seek a fourth term at the next election, due by mid-2010.

    The House of Lords had repeatedly rejected the government's ID card plans but has now accepted a compromise under which people applying for a new passport will have an opt-out until 2010 although their details will be put on an ID card database.

    "I am delighted that we have been able to give our backing to (this) amendment," said junior interior minister Andy Burnham.

    He said it ensured that everyone who applied for a passport would have their biometric information placed on the register while it also alleviated the concerns of those who had argued the cards should not yet be compulsory.

    Labour has long had plans to introduce ID cards, which it says will help tackle identity theft, abuse of the state benefits system, illegal immigration, organised crime and terrorism, although the measure has hit fierce opposition.

    In its policy blueprint for last year's election Labour said it was committed to introducing identity cards, initially on a voluntary basis. Since then it sought to link the scheme to passport applications.

    It will be the first time Britons have carried ID cards since they were abolished after World War Two.

    ID cards are used in about a dozen European Union countries but are not always compulsory and do not carry as much data.

    The House of Commons, is expected to formally approve the House of Lords decision later on Wednesday.
  2. Not much point in non-compulsory ID cards. On the other hand, much more fraud already occurs due to the misuse of passports - fake ones that illegal immigrants can get hold of. The passport itself will be subject to more strict scrutiny, apparently, but first-time applicants can now expect to have to report in person, for interviews and to check the photographs etc, at one of the 67 new regional passport offices being set up. Step in the right direction I think, and could make it simpler, eventually, to full use of compulsory ID cards.
  3. I got my British passbook many years ago in Australia and even then had to have a personal interview, though I didn't for my Oz one I got last year
  4. Immigration desks at most airports deal in different ways with holders of different passports. So, a bit like the airports in Europe with bad security that provided weakpoints for terrorists to get on planes and plant stuff or hijack, the Australian passport (or any 'low-risk' country's passport) if easier to get hold of, will soon become an easy way for terrorists to travel around.
  5. Who pays for the ID cards? What will the eventual price be??

    Govts have a habit of getting figures wrong time they get round to sorting it out we will probably need a bank loan to pay for the thing.

    Quoted forty quid last time forty quid is a lot of cash for somebody on the breadline. It is not only pensioners who are struggling to make ends meet out there I can tell thee. They have just introduced pin numbers[ten years behind the rest of the world]to prevent fraud have they not.

    Next time you apply for your passport you have to apply for your ID card that sounds right.

    You cannot travel far these days without the age of the computer. 

    Copy and paste and listen.

    Why is it when you have a member of the family depart this earth three years later you still get hospital appointments and eye tests and all other crap thrown in your face.

    Will ID cards stop all this crap. I doubt it very much.

  6. janner

    janner War Hero Book Reviewer

    I have a bee in my bonnet about paying for ID cards. I presume with todays technoligy several readable strips can be put onto the cards, hopefully there is someone on the forum with the knowledge.

    If this is the case I would like to see the ID card become the card for all purposes, ie. Bank Card(s), NHS Card, DHSS Card, Driving Licence and Car Insurance, I'm sure that there are more uses that others can add, by using it in this way any cost becomes more acceptable, in the first case Banks could contribute a good share of the costs, how much do they now spend out on issuing various bank cards? We already pay for a driving licence so that cost could be set against ID card cost.

    Monies saved by having to produce card when claiming benefits or NHS treatment would be enormous, simply a case of no card no claim/treatment. It would cut out duplicate claims at a stroke, providing the checking system is good enough to pick up on multiple applications for the ID Card in the first place. With this Governments history with computer systems this could be the major hitch.

    Obviously different strips on the back would give access to the part of the information that each organisation is entitled to.
  7. Like Janner I don't like the idea of having to pay the government even more money just to exist. Even so if the ID card was used inteligently by the government it couyld be a good thing, the trouble is that using intelligence and government in the same sentence is a vey dangerous thing.

    I suspect we are stuck with it and as ever will have to make the best of the cock up it will most likely become.

  8. All of the arguments/benefits being put forward for ID cards are basically a crock of sh1t !

    It is so obvious that to be of any use at all, compulsion was (er...) compulsory.

    The best ID cards can do is REDUCE crime/terrorism ? Anything the government can produce can be forged. At best they will reduce minor, opportunistic crime. Any serious players will be able to get round these checks - how much does a forged passport cost ?

    Security of the data being collected on us all is a major issue. What will the govt use it for ? Big brother WILL be looking at you. Who will have access to this data ? I'm willing to take bets on the data being made available to outside agencies - e.g. DVLA data is pretty readily available.

    The govt still has no real idea how much this will cost to set up/run. How many govt IT projects have come in on time/on budget ?

    Even if the technology is 99.9% effective the individual failure rate is still huge (e.g. 60,000,000 people, used only once per day gives 60,000 failures EACH day. What happens when you're the individual who's id card fails to get read/scanned correctly ?)

    However, the main thing that grips my sh1t is that if they are going to require us to have them then why are WE paying for them ?
  9. All I want it to stop is thieving scum dole cheats. Terrorism can be stopped in other ways.

    One way is to stop screwing with other country's.....hey just a mad idea but it might work.
  10. Got to agree with you on the dole dodging spongers. Watching 'wife swap' (trying to get ideas!!) the other night there was a couple with five kids who voluntarily stay at home to look after them and live off benefits. I was absolutely fuming. Why should we pay their benefits when they are voluntarily not at work. Sponging scum.

    Anyway, will us serving members have to pay for ID cards? Indeed will we need them?
  11. Of course you are right no controls will eliminate terrorism, although they can help to control and minimise it. You will only stop it by getting to the root causes.

    I am not so concerned about the security of data from outsiders more the security against total loss, if your dat dissapears you become a non person and that could make life very difficult. Whilst I would agree that some agencies are over liberal with the release of data in search of the fast buck I think that the whole ID card thing cannot work if the core data gets out.

    Your comments on 'getting it right' is my biggest concern, the civil service as a community is very poor at explaining what they want and how they intend to use things, hence the vast cock ups we have had in the past. As you say 99.9% is not good enough, and whilst better than that may seem difficult how often do bank cards fail.

    One of the biggest advantages about the system as outlined so far is that it would appear to stop multiple identities, and reduce the chances of the 'bad guys' being able to clone personalities. It should also make the creation of identies as done in Day of the Jackal almost impossible.

    Of course the 'card' part will be capable of being forged, but the marrying that forged card up with the correct biometric data to validate it will be much more difficult.

    AS to having to pay to exist that does get up my nose.

  12. O lordy the ID card!!

    However, :idea: Lets all install webcams into our houses for the Home Office to watch our every move, whilst we're at it, read 1984 and compare it to the inevitable direction our government's leading us. The next step is the micro chipped population. or better still why don't they just insert a biometric chip up our bums. 8O

    I say no to ID cards. Why, because I object to something intrusive, that does not mean that I have something to hide, I have nothing to hide, I just have deep concerns over the principle of indroducing them, its just another erosion of our civil liberties... why should we be taxed on our existence? :evil:
  13. I trust this government less than the last one. I don't mean when Maggie was in charge either.
    First we had "Liar Blair" now we have, in opposition "Tory Blair". Who do I vote for now?
    ID cards? They want me to have one, fine. Issue it, cos I aint paying for it!
    Carried one in the Mob for 22 years, never cost me a penny, except when i lost it once :oops:
  14. The vast majority of benefit fraud has nothing to do with fake identities. Knowing that Mr Joe Bloggs is DEFINITELY Mr Joe Bloggs won't do a damned thing to stop him pretending to be unemployed/disabled/etc.

    Likewise terrorism. Knowing that a young man with no criminal record and no known links to terrorism is DEFINITELY who he says he is won't stop his first criminal act being a suicide bombing, will it?
  15. Uncle_Albert, what about when Mr Joe Bloggs goes round the corner and magically becomes Mr Pete Davey?
  16. Blapto, it happens, as I said in my original post. Does it happen enough to warrant compulsory ID cards? No. The cure, as it were, will be far, far more expensive than the disease.

    I'm looking forwards to seeing how the government will deal with people who refuse to take part. Will groups of government enforcers abduct people and forcibly take them to 'processing centres' where their hands will be forced onto scanners and their eyes forced open and held against camera lenses?
  17. ID cards would be good if they are used like they are where I am now, means you can get a passport, open bank account etc. with just your ID card, none of that bollocks showing 3 forms of ID.
    IF that is the case then good one, but if it is just an additional document that you can't use on internal flghts etc. then bin it.
  18. But herein lies one of the big problems of a generic ID card. It becomes the trusted form, so I need only fake one piece of ID. Previously I had to fake several, and there was always the chance that some zealous or suspicious guy would double check them. Bring in ID cards, though, and I only have to fake a single piece of ID, with the added bonus that Joe Public will implicitly trust it and never call my bluff on it.
  19. The type of system that seems to be being proposed will make some things much more difficult. Multiple identies will be difficult to create as only one set of biometric data can be used for one identity, this will impact on benefit fraud, and I think the multiple identy is a problem with this and is certainly responsible for the bigger frauds, forged passports will lose their value unless some one can hack into the database, and the creation of new identities will also be dificult. Yes it will be xpensive but as the holders of the cards will end up paying the bill the government will be able to show savings.

    I don't think the government is all that worried about the refusniks, you will need the card to get any government services, if you don't have one life will become more and more difficult.

  20. The government will show savings, but only by virtue of making us pay directly rather than increasing tax. It'll still hit your pocket. The question is does identity fraud cost each person on average however much the ID card will cost each person on average? Bear in mind that there are huge additional costs attached that get overlooked; right now my biometrics are checked by virtue of the person looking at the picture on my passport or whatever, which takes a second and requires no additional technology. Having to run a check via a machine will add time. I expect that many busy places will simply not have the time to carry out a proper fingerprint/iris comparison and will simply look at the picture on the card. I don't need to create a fake identity, just have an ID card that passes a visual inspection and wait for the busy period.

    I'm no expert on this one, but I think the government will be legally unable to refuse services just on the grounds that you do not have a government approved form of ID. Essentially, your entitlement or lack thereof to health care etc. does not depend on being able to prove who you are.

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