How come.......

Discussion in 'Royal Naval Reserve (RNR)' started by trehorn, Oct 15, 2011.

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  1. You can apply to join the regulars while already in the RNR but you can't join the RNR while applying to join the regulars or apply to join the RNR while already in the regulars, even if you're waiting to leave?
    :confused4: :confused:
  2. Because the RN and RNR are bloody minded, process-driven and frankly incapable of understanding how the world works?
  3. Purple_twiglet

    Purple_twiglet War Hero Moderator

    Trehorn - you can express an interest, but I think JPA gets tired and emotional when people try to make it think that one person can be in one service and trying to get into another.

    Also, it could be argued by some that because we rely heavily on a collection of well meaning but tired individuals to to the manning, many of whom have not had exactly glittering careers, and too many of them are looking for their own future career instead...
  4. jockpopeye

    jockpopeye Badgeman Book Reviewer

    The academic answer is because hierarchical management systems are good for strong control, but are poor at being flexible.
  5. I think you're spot on PT. The fact that you are given a seperate JPA account when you mobilise is farsicle and causes no end of problems.
  6. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Excellent questions.

    You would have reasonably hoped that these paradoxes could be solved by people cleverer & better paid, namely the policy-makers.

    These aren't excuses, but the reasons why these anomalies occur from an AFCO perspective:

    1. The RNR are supposed to be significantly increasing their numbers, despite the fact we cannot meet the manning requirement before the proposed increase. (Not helped by the fact they no longer have any ships & have now specialised in non-regular directly equivalent trades). The RNR wants the flexibility to augment the trained strength of the Royal Navy, when required, in sufficient numbers. If someone applying to join the regular RN joins the RNR in the interim, it is possible we could witness a repeat of the RMR to RM conundrum - if you allow a trained rank to transfer, you lose the flexibility to augment & have to pay a full time wage reserve to regular. The RNR, for their part, are reluctant to employ and train people at their expense when they know they will lose them to the regular service after a couple of years - it's a bit like the parable of the dog with the juicy steak looking at his reflection, unable to accept compromise to ensure their appetite is sated.

    2. Those in the regular RN wishing to join the Reserves simply need apply to join the RNR, ideally during terminal leave so the medical, security clearance & RNFT remain valid, but after the Discharge Certificate & Certificate of Termination is issued. Basically you have to stop being paid in one job before you start being paid in another job.
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  7. Are you sure about that bit Ninja? In my day there were a few who thought that way but the vast majority saw a migration of RNR to RN as a positive thing notwithstanding the imbuggerance of losing good people just as they were about to become "useful".

    As for the problems recruiting to required strength, I can't help thinking that a lot of people have been and still are being binned when a happy compromise could be to retain them on a standstill list where they are "available" but don't block promotion by the young, keen thrusting types wanting to progress - win-win, especially since the cost of keeping a standstill person would be minimal consisting of annual refresher training and a reduced bounty. I know I wasn't really ready to be binned (on age) and since I am still in (very) active employment my civvie employer does not view me as past my sell by date (just yet)
  8. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    My understanding is that the RNR would prefer recruits who want to join the RNR primarily.

    I've heard different reasons from different people within the RNR at different ranks from Admiral to Ratings. The common theme is that the RNR understandably wants people beyond becoming useful & leaving, however my own thoughts are much the same as yours in that if we cannot recruit and retain for the RNR then a transient RNR membership is better than no RNR membership. But, at present CMR policy doesn't permit those joining the Regulars to join the Reserves - or rather no-one has made a policy statement one way or the other, so nothing happens whilst we obey the last order...
  9. But is there any benefit to transient RNR membership to either the service (regular or reserve) or to the rating?

    Assume 'Jack' wants to join the RN as a rating, but knows that there is a minimum two-year waiting list. Unperturbed by policy, 'Jack' joins the RNR and then applies to join the RN. During the two-year interim, Jack has applied himself by passing out of HMS Raleigh (Tisdall Division two-week course) and has applied himself by qualifying in his branch as an AB1. He is nominated as a candidate for mobilisation and receives his call-out papers. He then receives a date from his AFCO for joining the regulars. The date would be during his deployment.

    If the RNR releases 'Jack' from mobilisation so that he can join the regulars, then his Training Unit has suffered because money will have been invested in 'Jack' for no reward. If 'Jack' is not released from his mobilisation then 'Jack' will suffer because his date to join the RN is delayed.

    Furthermore, 'Jack' will still need to go through basic training at HMS Raleigh again, irrespective of what other courses and deployments he has completed in the RNR, and may have to redo some of the training courses already completed during his time in the RNR. So even if 'Jack' is released from his mobilisation, has he really benefitted from his transient membership in the RNR?
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Interesting question TaylorMono - it would be helpful to have some figures on post Raleigh retention levels because I have heard it said that new entries into the RN with prior "naval experience" (SCC,RNR,URNU etc) tend to stay because they know what to expect and when the going gets tought they don't just give up - No idea if that is just an urban myth or is grounded in fact but the concept makes sense to me.
  11. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    One to consider:

    How come regular RN need to complete a week's PRNC & 10 week's INT, but the RNR achieve the same result with only 3 weeks at Raleigh?

    Maybe the RNR training at unit can include regular RN too.
  12. It is NOT CMR policy to stop potential RN recruits who have been accepted, but on a 2yr+ waiting list, from joining the RNR. It is CNR's policy, and many a hour at CMR has been spent trying to reverse this. CMR want's potentials to join, it is not a waste of cash, it helps the RN, and is only an issue if we are turning away recruits, which we are not.
  13. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    As suggested above in the fuller context, there is not a definite policy one way or the other at the recruiting coal-face, so the default setting is nothing happens.

    CMR have knocked-back trained rank RMR Commandos transferring to the regular RM, so it's perhaps understandable that those wishing to join the regular RN would be reluctant to join the RNR as an interim measure if it perhaps jeopardised their joining the regular RN for the same reasons - after all, the RNR is aiming to increase in size...
  14. *R12 brushes off cobwebs from a 3 month RR absence*

    There's something very remis within the MOD/RN here; not making the most of their own investments i.e. the Reservist.

    Making a comparison here;
    My employer operates 48 fire stations in a Metropoliton area.
    12 of these are 'part time' staffed by Retained Firefighters (I'll liken these to RNR)
    The remainder are Wholetime Firefighters (I'll liken these to RN)

    Up until about four years ago if a Retained FF wanted to join the Wholetime, s/he would have to go on to complete the 13 week recruit course, despite having spent x amount of years doing exactly the same job to that of his regular counterpart. How rediculous was this?

    Eventually someone in the upper echeolons saw some sense and produced a policy stating that if they met a specific criterior, these 'investments' could transfer across, saving the authority some brass (something between £40K-75K inc the probation assessment process). The result is fantastic, producing a quality product way above that of the conventional 'off-the-street' candidate. Blunt but true.

    Back to RN/RNR cross-mapping; I find it bewildering that a reservist having done their NE training in unit, done their 2 wk recruit course in Tisdale Div, done their Ops Training (pre deployment), then deployed, got the medal, got their hook, that they are then expected to go to Raleigh to be taught how brush their fecking teeth and iron a cokcing bedsheet! ALL at the expense of the taxpayer!

    From what I can see, the fault lies through seperate RN/RNR funding...
  15. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker War Hero Moderator

    Good points R12_CV.

    It's interesting in these days of limited budgets, it now takes the regular service applicant 1 week's Potential Royal Naval Course & 10 weeks Initial Naval Training (INT) to achieve the same status previously achieved in six weeks.

    The civilian private industry model of training is most definitely On Job Training - in other words practical experience emphasis, rather than theoretical. The theoretical aspect often achieved through day or block release to a college of knowledge. Funnily enough, this is pretty much how the RNR currently achieve it & have always achieved it. Something must be missing if a trained RNR rating needs to undergo INT upon joining the regulars - one is either under-trained or the other, over-trained.

    I've never been convinced that washing & ironing kit is remotely vocational but there are of course, underlying reasons somewhere. It's perhaps interesting that the Royal Marines get their personal admin "boxed-off" in the first two weeks during Foundation, but then, as we all know, matelots always appear far smarter after training. :-D
  16. I wonder if the regulars are being over-trained, because the length of initial training seems to be increasing. When my Dad joined in the seventies, he was a Phase 1 NE for six weeks before passing out and moving onto Phase 2 training. Whilst I was at Tisdall Division, the regulars underwent eight weeks training before moving to Phase 2. Now its ten weeks, and a week-long Potential Royal Naval Course to boot!

    Why should it take so long to turn someone from a civilian into an AB2? Is there extra content being added into intial training (which is genuinely valuable to the NE) or are delays being created by the RN to accomodate possible delays in Phase 2 training?
  17. Guys & girls,i think some of you are missing the fundemental point. CMR wants potential regulars to join the rnr. Its commodore naval recruiting thats holding things up. CMR is happy that those who have been offered a place in the regulars but waiting a decent period of time before a place becomes availale, to join the reserves.

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