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How can the Navy operate with 35% of PO(ET) missing. Should Industry be taxed for poaching Engineers

Hooly

Lantern Swinger
What do people think. I personally don't like it when people run down the RN all the time. Industry take a short cut and entice engineers out instead of training their own
 

janner

MIA
Book Reviewer
I would add to Dapper's comment that it shows how desparate things are getting, My word they'll be after getting Crabs to transfer next.
 
I would add to Dapper's comment that it shows how desparate things are getting, My word they'll be after getting Crabs to transfer next.

Bad enough trying the get them on board with their own squadrons.

If my time on JFH was anything to go by they all believe they would be entitled to at least a 2 rate promotion from what they are :mad:
 

grumpywurzel

Midshipman
The blame unfortunately lies squarely with the adults I am afraid. For years we were told that its tough shit, either deal with being shit on or leave. Several years ago we had the Grande Fromage from Sultan visit us on Bulwark for a "fact finding mission" to find out why engineers were leaving and after 10 mins he had enough of being told the truth, and came out with the classic "If you don't like it, you know where the door is". Great morale boosting effort for the young lads/ladies.

It's not industry poaching engineers, its the Navy not looking after the people they have.
 

slim

War Hero
I did 22 years in the Army lots of tours they were tough. The Navy is tough but I wouldn't want to do anything else I've done back to back tours crash drafted it's just how it is. I think there's to many wingers. I've seen people take 1 hour stand easys do three day weeks and still moan. I think there are a lot of soft weak senior rates that spread the rot

Well they are Wafus after all and not expected to do more than that without a clicky bed break;)
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
should have done something about the problem 5+ years ago. Even then, it was still a problem

being an engineer in the Navy is weird. You are expected to manage a huge amount but only being a chief allows you to make a decision on your own. Which is turn, creates much more work for the Chiefs.

the work load is incredible.
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
should have done something about the problem 5+ years ago. Even then, it was still a problem

being an engineer in the Navy is weird. You are expected to manage a huge amount but only being a chief allows you to make a decision on your own. Which is turn, creates much more work for the Chiefs.

the work load is incredible.

Really? I'd counter that with the reluctance in latter days of engineering ratings of any flavour to claim ownership of their kit, particularly when it goes wrong. Sure, we can blame complexity and the really, really poor quality of training (and trainers, in some cases) but the bottom line is ... you are engineers. your yearning to know how shit works, how you keep it working and how to fix it when it stops working are your drivers, not manking about shit kit, shit training and shit time off. The truth is the taxpayer wants to see value for money and (as has been said) hour long standeasies, standing Friday M&Ms and spending too much time relying on OEM support doesn't cover you in clover. I am not saying all engineers are like this ... some are fantastic ratings and officers who reach out for excellence and become champions of their speciality. But there have been too many in the past ten years coasting and blaming, instead of fixing and maintaining.

As a post script, I'd like to believe that Programme Faraday will fix this, but having seen what is on offer, I am unconvinced it will.

levers
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
Really? I'd counter that with the reluctance in latter days of engineering ratings of any flavour to claim ownership of their kit, particularly when it goes wrong. Sure, we can blame complexity and the really, really poor quality of training (and trainers, in some cases) but the bottom line is ... you are engineers. your yearning to know how shit works, how you keep it working and how to fix it when it stops working are your drivers, not manking about shit kit, shit training and shit time off. The truth is the taxpayer wants to see value for money and (as has been said) hour long standeasies, standing Friday M&Ms and spending too much time relying on OEM support doesn't cover you in clover. I am not saying all engineers are like this ... some are fantastic ratings and officers who reach out for excellence and become champions of their speciality. But there have been too many in the past ten years coasting and blaming, instead of fixing and maintaining.

As a post script, I'd like to believe that Programme Faraday will fix this, but having seen what is on offer, I am unconvinced it will.

levers
Adaptive forces frigates, watchbills at breaking point, man power at all levels being pulled to other units at hours/days notice, terrible maintenance/refit standards from the 'company' and the hats expected to wear dont really get cut. All would be fine if we went to work (shore or sea) and just did engineering/fought the fight
 

Hooly

Lantern Swinger
Really? I'd counter that with the reluctance in latter days of engineering ratings of any flavour to claim ownership of their kit, particularly when it goes wrong. Sure, we can blame complexity and the really, really poor quality of training (and trainers, in some cases) but the bottom line is ... you are engineers. your yearning to know how shit works, how you keep it working and how to fix it when it stops working are your drivers, not manking about shit kit, shit training and shit time off. The truth is the taxpayer wants to see value for money and (as has been said) hour long standeasies, standing Friday M&Ms and spending too much time relying on OEM support doesn't cover you in clover. I am not saying all engineers are like this ... some are fantastic ratings and officers who reach out for excellence and become champions of their speciality. But there have been too many in the past ten years coasting and blaming, instead of fixing and maintaining.

As a post script, I'd like to believe that Programme Faraday will fix this, but having seen what is on offer, I am unconvinced it will.

levers
I agree with you. I am new to it all but people don't seem to able to take the rough with the smooth. Adaptive force frigates only do short hops and never go above state 3, so I can't accept that argument. The MSU jacks are taking on a lot more refit jobs and doing a better and better job. It will be a while to they get it right because everyones been reliant on OEM and contracts for to many years, but they are accountable because they are serving ratings and officers.
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
Adaptive forces frigates, watchbills at breaking point, man power at all levels being pulled to other units at hours/days notice, terrible maintenance/refit standards from the 'company' and the hats expected to wear dont really get cut. All would be fine if we went to work (shore or sea) and just did engineering/fought the fight

I have worked for 'the mob', and for 'the company'. I have said on here before, that what the mob gets from the company is exactly what they pay for, be it in ships, or be it in support.

The whole ethos of Class Output Management is ostensibly a partnership and in any partnership, blaming each other is counterproductive. It would be helpful to hear from those who have issues with how things are with constructive options, and preferably ones which meet the exact amount of money awarded by the taxpayer. Providing Gold Standard support models whereby the dockyards are rammed with warehouses full of (in date and not obsolescent) spares and SQEP engineers/contractors to fix shit at the drop of a hat is eye wateringly expensive, certainly many magnitudes what crown assumes is a fair slice of the defence budget.

And as for manpower, times change. Industry has a greater gravitational pull than the planet Jupiter (although those going into the petrochemical sector find out how fickle the easily-chased dollar is when the price per barrel tanks) and the tolerance factor and reliance on assumed sensibility of loyalty is equally fragile.

I'd like to think we are intent on training our way out of this.

levers
 

Hooly

Lantern Swinger
The petrol chemical industry is dead in the water. The company I used to work for building heat exchangers dropped the orders because they were expensive to get the spec right and they dictated the price. We just couldn't make any money out of them. People have the wrong impression of life in civvy street. I have friends on the rigs in the north sea and they have cut jobs to the bone. The only reason he's still working is he's part of the decommissioning and preservation maintenance programs. At least this jobs secure.
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
I agree with you. I am new to it all but people don't seem to able to take the rough with the smooth. Adaptive force frigates only do short hops and never go above state 3, so I can't accept that argument. The MSU jacks are taking on a lot more refit jobs and doing a better and better job. It will be a while to they get it right because everyones been reliant on OEM and contracts for to many years, but they are accountable because they are serving ratings and officers.
they may not go beyond state 3, but watchbills still have to be manned, maintenance still has to be carried out. the 'admin' still has to be done, divisional responsibilities still have to happen, the same real estate has to be cleaned/maintained with fewer people and sea dates still have to be met
 
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FunkyJunky

War Hero

I'd like to think we are intent on training our way out of this.

levers
shame those in the front line are still whacking their chits in.
Ridiculous sailing dates have to be 'met' as it is a game of who will blink first, the company or the ship/RN in who will declare that it cannot be met
the programme to meet said dates is incredible whilst engineering manning at the same time (to meet said dates) is rather frightening

not a great deal of Faraday training is going to change that

what made me laugh was when we had a very recent inspection by squadron staff (long nights of admin getting ready for that) and one of their 'disappointments' was the fact some of the logs (and there are an incredible amount) didnt have colour printed spines on them (but black and white ones)

you have to laugh or you will cry (and put your chit in)
 
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BARNEYRNSM

War Hero
I left the mob time done in 2008 and now work in power generation and I can tell you why it's easier outside,you only do one role,ie operate or maintain. in the mob you have a watchkeeping position, action station,SSD, RR, section of JRs to look after,various committees be they preservation or noise shorts etc,operation of equipment, maintenance and defect rectification, in civvy street you operate it,if it breaks you tell someone and they fix it. I struggled to understand what SAP and AP was but realise it's just what you do as a senior rate ie us doing isolations,ie working out what needs to isolated and doing that, then fixing it and test running it when you get it back ordering all stores etc. in civvy street you tell someone it's broken, they tell they have the parts to fix it and you isolate it them to work on and run it up when they have fixed it. I would say it's about a quarter of what you do in the mob for more money,double money if you go off shore. The training you receive in the mob is second to none,lads at my work are having to pay themselves through BTEC, using holidays swapping shifts etc,I was a full time student for 2.5 years ad a PO, cheers easy,every weekend off and block leave.
I would say once you have finished your 22 step outside you will notice how professional the mob is and how easy civvy street is!
 
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