Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by soleil, Mar 24, 2009.
The heart of the site is the forum area, including:
Government cash starvation. Are they going to comment, are they going to admit they have cut the MoD budget so close to the knuckle that they navy are having to dig into dustbins to keep themselves afloat? You can bet your life it will be the usual Mr Brown crap "It wasn't my fault".
When ships are starved of spares as basic as a fuel filter and as paramount as a missile launcher, this was bound to happen.
An explosion which killed two British submariners was caused by "systemic failures", a coroner has ruled. It makes me upset when coroners say that, as you know , that no one is ever brought to book .
So we now have it in writing that inept funding for supplies killed them. Sadly I doubt we will be seeing anyone's head roll for this.
The Coroner actually named the person responsible for rescuing the SCOGS from the dump to save cash: let's hope his career will proceed no higher, but I wouldn't put money on it.
Is it as simple as saying that it's his fault? If the option was taking the items from the dump or berthing the whole fleet, which would you choose? Would a person even have a choice? Not defending his actions, but I don't think it's clean cut.
Hmmmmmm,,,,,,I'll put my hand up and say I believed the propaganda that this new square model was an improvement on the round tins. The old round tins had there faults, but for feck sake.
Another money saving excerise??????????
Maybe not, but it would seem the decision cost two lives - what price are those ? Does this person know the possible consequence of his actions ? I'd be interested to see his trade - civvy jack dusty or some technical grade.
Dont suppose it included the one that ordered him to do it???
In the civilian world I suspwect there would be a criminal prosecution, but hey ho this is the MOD.
So where does the throw 'em in the slammer blame train start? The boat that originally landed them without return vouchers? The Yard clearance Party for not knowing what they were and putting them with other sundry arisings in their wagon? The Haz Store (it's a Store not a Dump; but Dump sounds more emotive, doesn't it) for accepting them? the IPT for conditioning them in the light of the known history and Item limitations?
That's why it has been described as "systemic failures". It's not any "individual's" fault. They were all acting in good faith following the book (except for the initial departure from the book). The imperitive to not "waste" stores was around long before the current bunch of f**kwits got into power. On this occasion it went to rats**t and took 2 decent lads with it. We now know a bit more about oxy candles than we did previously but at a hell of a cost.
I've not been close to this and have had nothing to do with oxy candles for about 10 years; before any one asks.
P O L
When you say store do you mean it inside a building and dry. Where the SCOGS stacked on shelving or pallets or just dumped into a skip, bins or in pile on the floor. Without ever seeing the current ones can I ask if the are protected in a very thin alloy case if so what steps were taken to prevent damage to this case? If the answers are in the lower end of the scale then it was a dump not a store.
I think you made my point there, we have always known these things were potentially very nasty if stored/used improperly. In civvy life we would be able to drill down and line up those who made errors, a company not far from me has just been done for killing just one of it's workers, but as I say Hey Ho it's the MOD and no one person can ever be held responsible.
Nutty. regarding the construction of the Candle, I can't add any more than, Para 104 onwards; http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/08A7D08E-E092-4159-94C3-9A26E182A01B/0/boi_hmstireless.pdf
As I remember, the Haz Store in Guz would have held the "arisings" on a pallet, given protection from the weather. I had a conversation with a bloke who had been involved in this second hand but, having had a few beers since Summer '07, I can't remember a lot of the detail. It was clear, though, that at no stage had they been in a skip or sullage bin. Having had the word "dump" so casually used, it will now be near impossible to get that image out of people's minds. For obvious reasons, I'm not inclined to make contact and ask more questions. As I say, at the time (when wild claims of "document falsification" were being made), nothing about the handling sounded abnormal.
The fundamentals from the evidence that has been reported (I agree there may be a lot more appropriate stuf that has not been reported) is that there was a batch of candles that were in some way condemned, the civil serpent gave them a cursory look over and without any further check certified them as fit for re-issue. On the face of it in the normal world there would be an HSE prosecution. One must always remeber that not only must justice be done it must be seen to be done. At present all that can be seen is an injustice where 2 decent lads died because of failures in the system
Edited to add from the ministers statement
"I would like to unreservedly apologise to the families, as I have done previously in the House and in person, for the avoidable failings, for which this department is responsible, which brought about this tragic incident."
If it was avoidable who failed to avoid it?
Names in the local paper so it's public knowledge.
The coroner said Christopher Clark, a civil servant with the Marine Environment
Survivability and Habitability Project, decided to bring back into use the Scogs
from the hazardous waste depot because he wanted to cut costs for the MoD.
If its called The Hazardous Waste Depot, then it's waste, or am I
not on the right page of the Management-Speak dictionary?
Separate names with a comma.