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HMS Daring to be delayed until 2010

Oil_Slick

War Hero
lsadirty said:
So with this as a benchmark, we can really look forward to 2 carriers on time on budget ?

The only questions we will be asking in 2020 are…

How did they enter service so late?, why did they cost so much more than anticipated?


They haven't even cut a piece of steel yet, and the idiots upon high are still claiming a 2014 and 2016 ISD is realistic.

With that sort of delusional thinking from the get go, I think we can safely look forward to CVF making T45 look like a resounding procurement 'success'.
 

Karma

War Hero
Not_a_boffin said:
I think you're a bit high in your estimate of numbers as well.

Not out of the question. ISTR reading something when HRMS was launched about there being just under 200k civil servants. The figure must be about 5 years or so out of date thinking about when HRMS was launched, so given the culling and outsourcing it must have reduced.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Asst_Ed said:
Oi, Oil Slick, so messing about on Rum Ration and finish sorting the pages out. :w00t:


<… Looks in the drop box on the server…>

What ******* pages?

…And don't spin this story in this months Pravda.
 

lsadirty

War Hero
Having just completed sea trials, anyone any idea WHAT will delay entry to sevice for 2 years ? Must be a FUBAR of megga proportions ?
 
lsadirty said:
Having just completed sea trials, anyone any idea WHAT will delay entry to sevice for 2 years ? Must be a FUBAR of megga proportions ?

How about first of class trials, when they find out whether what they bought really does what the wanted in the first place. The acceptance trials just confirm they have bought what was specified in the contract.
 

Not_a_boffin

War Hero
The delay will probably be FWA of the weapons system. Given that Longbow has only just headed off to the Med for firing trials, it'll take a wee while to get the thing calibrated and working. Other things might be dependent on completion of trials - all the hoo-ha about gaining Merlin operating capability has got b8gger all to do with kit on the ship and everything to do with scheduling the FoC flying trials.

O-S has also hit the nail on the head. Drayson's Maritime Industrial Strategy has essentially created a monopoly and that monopoly was based on the (very questionable if you're not a MB civil servant) assumption that we would not order enough ships to keep more than one major shipbuilder viable. Result - easiest way to take the p1ss out of the VT lads down here is to ask them whether they've got their BAE badge yet - works every time.

The power of the Clyde shipbuilding lobby has to be seen to be believed, particularly now Liabour have to try harder to keep the Porridge wogs sweet.

We have probably gone too far down the road now to rectify the situation - there is no one company with the critical mass of design skills able to do a full-up ship design. MoD are attempting to do something for FSC on an Alliance basis, but from what I've seen it's not going to work.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the US industry is in a similar state. The Arleigh Burke is a twenty year old design and the DDG1000 has taken the best part of 15 years to achieve a ludicrously oversized design that will come in at somewhere north of $3bn a copy for the ship alone. Their LCS programme is struggling as well and don't even go anywhere near LPD17.

Looks like Mr Putin has picked a good time to start playing silly b8ggers
 

YouAreHavingALaugh

Lantern Swinger
Maxi_77 said:
lsadirty said:
Having just completed sea trials, anyone any idea WHAT will delay entry to sevice for 2 years ? Must be a FUBAR of megga proportions ?

How about first of class trials, when they find out whether what they bought really does what the wanted in the first place. The acceptance trials just confirm they have bought what was specified in the contract.


Correct, however is the first of class trials a new thing. NO

So who on earth stated the date for the ship to be in service,

Another cock up by the grown ups who think they know how the Navy works or just another spin story to the press to make it look like we will have new ships soon, when we really will not.

I can smell something and it does not smell good.
 

YouAreHavingALaugh

Lantern Swinger
Not_a_boffin said:
The delay will probably be FWA of the weapons system. Given that Longbow has only just headed off to the Med for firing trials, it'll take a wee while to get the thing calibrated and working.

That will be the weapon system we went for as it has alreday been proved and we would save time and money not having to prove it then!

It would only take first time firings onboard the hull to prove, not trials on a trial ship.
 

Not_a_boffin

War Hero
Err, not with the Sampson, plus ASTER / Sylver combo......

Missile goes whoosh, bang - yes - but only proven when controlled by EMPAR, APAR.

Give Gary Google a shout for the barge Longbow.....
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
YouAreHavingALaugh said:
Not_a_boffin said:
The delay will probably be FWA of the weapons system. Given that Longbow has only just headed off to the Med for firing trials, it'll take a wee while to get the thing calibrated and working.

That will be the weapon system we went for as it has alreday been proved and we would save time and money not having to prove it then!

It would only take first time firings onboard the hull to prove, not trials on a trial ship.

Well, yes, but someone 'forgot' at wherever to tell the Minister that the 'proven' ASTER was only 'proven' to work with EMPAR



Of course, if we had avoided the EuroJohhnie route in the first place, we'd probably have ended up with AEGIS/SM-2/Mk41 VLS and we wouldn't be having these issues.
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
Oil_Slick said:
FlagWagger said:
Oil_Slick said:
...Brimstone...

This is actually not a Septic system - its a joint Anglo-French missile from MBDA....
:)


Nope, that's Storm Shadow.

Brimstone is our gucchied up version of Hellfire.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1996_Nov_7/ai_18844042
While Brimstone may be a gucci version of Hellfire, I understand that there was a lot of work done by BAe/MBDA (I was going to say improvement, but then I remembered who was doing the work) and certainly when Brimstone finally entered into service a couple of years ago (while I was working at Boscombe for Quinty-Q) all the in-service assessments worked on the basis of MBDA and not any Septic company.
 
Oil_Slick said:
Of course, if we had avoided the EuroJohhnie route in the first place, we'd probably have ended up with AEGIS/SM-2/Mk41 VLS and we wouldn't be having these issues.

How much "stretch" is there in there then? Bin ends always look cheap.
 
FlagWagger said:
While Brimstone may be a gucci version of Hellfire, I understand that there was a lot of work done by BAe/MBDA (I was going to say improvement, but then I remembered who was doing the work) and certainly when Brimstone finally entered into service a couple of years ago (while I was working at Boscombe for Quinty-Q) all the in-service assessments worked on the basis of MBDA and not any Septic company.

Brimstone is a new airframe, (hellfire doesn't like being carried on a fast jet, tends to fall apart) control system and seeker, only the hellfire warhead and rocket motor are used. Most of the work was done by MBDA with Boeing as a sub contractor for the motor and warhead so it is a bit of a bastard so to speak.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Passed-over_Loggie said:
Oil_Slick said:
Of course, if we had avoided the EuroJohhnie route in the first place, we'd probably have ended up with AEGIS/SM-2/Mk41 VLS and we wouldn't be having these issues.

How much "stretch" is there in there then? Bin ends always look cheap.

≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠


'Stretch'… you mean as in that the Mk41 is the de facto benchmark VLS that the Navy really wanted and has been integrated and tested with pretty much all naval missile stores including TLAM, (something we wanted but SYLVER physically cant take - too short). Or 'stretch' as in ESSM can be put down the holes as 4 packs instead one ups like an ASTER 15 giving a much bigger silo capacity. Or 'stretch' as in the SM-3 is able to function as a BMD interceptor, (another capability Navy would like but now can't have because the bought SYLVER)? Or 'stretch' as in the T45 project seems to be having significant issues getting the SAMPSON to integrate with ASTER and we'll probably have the same issues with any other missile we decide to fit, and if MOD does accept the advice of the Defence Committe and adopt the Mk41 for the Batch 3's to allow TLAM/SM-3 carriage we will be going down the whole very expensive route again. Or 'stretch' in AEGIS that now has a proven BMD capability, something SAMPSON can't as yet do and probably never will, (no suitable missile/now no money)?

MOD/Navy originally wanted the Mk41/SM-2 for very good technical/financial reasons, we went down the more expensive/less flexible ASTER/SYLVER route for purely political reasons.
 

Seaweed

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Besides Inclining Experiment, plotting turning circles so as to calculate advance and transfer, speed trials etc there is all the setting to work TOGETHER of the various components of the armament (what used to be called HATS and SATS), magnetic signature, does the prewetting work/cover everything, ...but it's a bit of a puzzle why this should take longer than six months.
 
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