Hearts and Minds

[finknottle]

Once again American forces have bombed civilians in Afghanistan killing dozens including women and children. How can NATO ever hope the win the hearts and minds of the ordinary Afghan when these 'gung ho' Yanks are in the air. These appalling incidents seriously undermine all the good work that our troops do with the local population in the south of the country.

Full Story here:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE54559920090506

 

[Grim_Reaper]

Same old, same old eh!
That's the Yanks for you.
I can imagine someone at US headquarters saying there's an acceptable body count and it might pitch the locals against the Taliban.
Like you say, doesn't do much for hearts and minds at all.

 

[Flagdeck]

The yanks have been killing their allies and friends since the last war, and probably before but never reported. I''m just glad that Harold Wilson kept us out of Vietnam in the 60's (My hayday!). God knows how many of their own they blew away in the jungle with their napalm.

 

[finknottle]

This is a negligent discharge of mega proportions and it's about time that those responsible were brought to book.

 

[AfterSSE]

Why do yanks insist on doing everything the hard way, they never learned their mistakes from Vietnam that constant bombing never works, there is nothing to bomb but trees and rocks... and in the case of Afghanistan just mountains...they really need to get a grip on whoever is in charge of air operations over there and get better intel...not everyone with a turban is Al Queda...ffs... :wink:

 

[thingy]

I think the Septics have learned the wrong lessons from the earlier Crusades, of killing all the inhabitents and letting God sort the good from the bad at the Pearly Gates. Then again, if you exterminate all your opponents, there will be no opposition. After all, do not all straight Muslims seek the company of multiple virgins in paradise, which only matyrdom can elicit and don't all good Septics believe in Rapture and the End Times? :roll:

 

[finknottle]

Off topic ish I know but are there virgin young boys waiting for Muslim women who have passed over the bar?

And yes the Yanks do need to move away from the strategy of Genghis Khan who incidentally was the only man who has ever been able to subdue that region.

 

[danny]

Yeah the brits would never kill anyone by mistake in an air attack. Maybe not civilians but i can think of at least 2 ocassions in the last few years were british forces have been attacked.
There was the apache attack which shot a load of paras last year.
And the year before that some FAC called an american jet to drop a bomb on 1 royal anglian.
At the end of the day i think the main reason we dont hear about as many british incidents is puerly down to the fact there are hardly and UK air assest in comparisson to american ones.

 

[finknottle]

I think you will find that if there are known to be civilians in the area the Brits do not bomb f..k out of it unlike our friends across the pond.

 

[WhizzbangDai]

Alexander subdued the region. Took 4 years, 100 000 men, and they were the only ones to get concessions out of him, but he did it.

Look, Finknottle, i'm not pro yank, i'm not a pilot, but stop being such a damn generalist. A combat pilot is rarely the easiest job in the world, and americans, yeah ha ha they shoot their own side all the time - it's not just them. So stop jumping all over them, and BZ to all the American Pilots who have helped out British Troops on the ground, in trouble over the past 6 years, because they've done a damn sight more of it in Iraq and Afghan than the RAF or Naval Strike Wing ever have.

Difficult job, under difficult circumstances, and i'm sure they deeply regret any mistakes they make.


Anyway, the Yanks have caught up when it comes to counter insugency's - they've had a steep learning curve, but they learnt the lessons well. Malaya was a LONG time ago now...


PS - I'm not taking anything away from the excellent job the RAF, Navy and Army air assets do in theatre. BZ to them too!

 

[finknottle]

So just why do they bomb an area when they know civilians are present? Don't try and say they didn't know as they had troops on the ground and damned well should have known. There actions do nothing to promote good feelings between the Afghans and us but it serves as a recruiting sergeant for the Taliban.

 

[WhizzbangDai]

Not once does it say women and children. I will admit it implies it, but maybe you're reading what you want to read?

One of the wests greatest advantages is its ability to fight at night. The fighting stopped, the airstrikes went in, and I bet they were watching Fighters relocating, re arming, whatever.

The people on the ground, will feel sad. They may know their uncle, or whoever, is fighting Pakistani soldiers, but regardless, they will be sad when he is killed, and you can be sure that his death would be reported as 'civilian'

Air power won't be used unless they had a target. We don;t know anything like the whole story, it's just something for a journo to justify his existance, so don't spew hate and disgust, until you have all the facts - and I doubt we ever will.


Just don't take it out on the airmen, or the yanks.

 

[finknottle]

Hate and disgust, bit strong ain't it? You say air power won't be used unless they have a target, well of course it won't but it does help to have the right one, the one that avoids innocent civilian deaths.

 

[WhizzbangDai]

If the right one is in the middle of a village, well, if the target would be shooting Allies the next day...

Hate and disgust is maybe a little strong, i'm just tired of constant American bashing. I love the national stereotypes as much as the next, but it's always just the septics. Every military makes mistakes, its just the americans do it more foten because they are the current superpower, at least, the only current superpower with contstant media attention. China/Russia do the same, but aren't quite under the same scrutiny.

 

[finknottle]

Well I will put it another way hypothetical I know but do you think our lads would have called up air support in the knowledge that dozens of civilians would be killed in the strike, I for one think that they would not?

 

[Montigny_La_Palisse]

There's a lot of sh1te being spouted here by people that have never even been to Iraq or Afghanistan so aren't even aware of what exactly was / is going on let alone the intricacies of CAS.

This is a negligent discharge of mega proportions and it's about time that those responsible were brought to book.

Firstly Fink, yes you are correct, in this instant they should be hung out to dry. The American troops are very, very quick to call in CAS, pretty much the moment a TIC kicks off they want air. Similarly, the aircrews are very quick to go kinetic and out ordnance down, in some ways they seem stuck in 2006, well that period is over and it's 2009 and yes we are in the hearts minds and development stage of operations.

With that in mind though, the US pilots are very good at what they do, they have saved countless lives, including civilian and British, but this is a very intense conflict, there will be casualties. And no it is not acceptable but it is to be expected, accidents, misunderstandings and occasional stupidity happen. That's war.

Yeah the brits would never kill anyone by mistake in an air attack. Maybe not civilians but i can think of at least 2 ocassions in the last few years were british forces have been attacked.
There was the apache attack which shot a load of paras last year.
And the year before that some FAC called an american jet to drop a bomb on 1 royal anglian.
At the end of the day i think the main reason we dont hear about as many british incidents is puerly down to the fact there are hardly and UK air assest in comparisson to american ones.

Utter, utter bollocks. The British have also made errors, both on the ground and in the air, just not as many. The reason we don't make as many mistakes? We, assess the situation, it's the British way, we will look at whats going on and build the picture, we also follow ROE, TO THE LETTER. If there is ANY doubt, the bomb won't go. And as for hardly any UK air Assets? British Harriers are available, and more often than not used 24 / 7 / 365. I will not break opsec by telling you the daily programme but they are airborne, A LOT.

So just why do they bomb an area when they know civilians are present? Don't try and say they didn't know as they had troops on the ground and damned well should have known.

In many, many instances mate, you have to cut through what you read and see the bigger picture. It is reported as Civilians but those who are civilians one minute are dicking us or shooting at us the next. The press will report what it likes, and you will buy it. I'm not saying innocents don't die or get bombed, far from it, what I am saying is I have known for a FACT insurgents being killed and it then being reported as civvies. You're an intelligent man Fink, you must surely take all you read with a pinch of salt.


This is all I'm going to say on this as it's an emotive subject for me, Whizzbangdai is right though, the yank bashing gets very old and tired when some of us owe ours and our friends lives to the skill of their aviators and troops.

 

[finknottle]

Without doubt US flyers have saved Brit lives with close air support but there is substance to my point about them being 'Gung Ho' as the Afghan President Hamid Karzai has repeatedly pleaded with the US forces to avoid civilian killings during their anti-insurgent operations and he is highly unlikely to have a go at the US without just cause.

 

[wet_blobby]

Come on Finky that's a shite way to put it. Bad things happen, believe it or not unintentionally.

Edited to add..this was aimed at the comment before Monty admirably waded in.

 

[finknottle]

Sorry that you do not like my style of prose WB, I thought my last post summed up the situation precisely.

 

[wet_blobby]

Mate, I think off it this way...

Blobbs, in the shite, big time, knows where its coming from, directs resources on to it.

Blobbs in the shite, thinks he knows where it's coming from, directs resources on to it, big time.