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Harrier Jump Jet things

smoothbore

Lantern Swinger
boredwafu said:
chieftiff said:
You've pretty much summed up the whole chain of events there, the only flaw in the logic being the fact that the FA2 was a multirole aircraft-albeit with engine issues capable of Fleet defence, the GR is a bomber with recce facility, no air attack capability whatsoever.

Interesting to note that just prior to 800 Sqdn's loss of the FA2 a bombing competition was held amongst all the Harrier Sqdns, 800 Sqdn won it by a mile against an aircraft designed as a pure bomber! Luck? Skill? capability? who knows, bloody embarrassing though for the GR7.

True, Crab accuracy has a lot to answer for - they even bombed our carrier once having missed the splash target, and didn't even have the common courtesy to apologies to those injured! (about 10years ago I think)

Yes, but sadly it was an RAF Pilot flying an RN SHAR and I think that the problem was caused by a maintainer failing to set the offset properly on the Weapons Aiming Computer. I joiuned up with the aircrewman who was badly injured and the Watch Chief is one of my best mates.
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
smoothbore said:
boredwafu said:
chieftiff said:
You've pretty much summed up the whole chain of events there, the only flaw in the logic being the fact that the FA2 was a multirole aircraft-albeit with engine issues capable of Fleet defence, the GR is a bomber with recce facility, no air attack capability whatsoever.

Interesting to note that just prior to 800 Sqdn's loss of the FA2 a bombing competition was held amongst all the Harrier Sqdns, 800 Sqdn won it by a mile against an aircraft designed as a pure bomber! Luck? Skill? capability? who knows, bloody embarrassing though for the GR7.

True, Crab accuracy has a lot to answer for - they even bombed our carrier once having missed the splash target, and didn't even have the common courtesy to apologies to those injured! (about 10years ago I think)

Yes, but sadly it was an RAF Pilot flying an RN SHAR and I think that the problem was caused by a maintainer failing to set the offset properly on the Weapons Aiming Computer. I joiuned up with the aircrewman who was badly injured and the Watch Chief is one of my best mates.

There was no maintenance error, read my response above. I also knew Nige very well, haven't seen him since the incident though and I wonder how he is getting on?
 

DingDong

Lantern Swinger
I should expand on my comments above. The RAF created Joint Force Harrier under a Crab 1* in order to protect their existence as the only fixed wing operators in the land. Then when the spending reviews were carried out they offered up the SHAR as a saving measure with the arguments that it was 70% different in terms of airframe and stores and therefore it made no sense to keep two serperate airframes.

The fact is that the crabs will never stop stabbing the FAA in the back. They are seriously worried that they will live as a service for 100 years and no more, because expeditionary warfare as we do it means Aircraft Carriers.

I am always doing my bit to **** them off and i hope everyone else it too.
 

Darkershadeofblu

Lantern Swinger
chieftiff said:
smoothbore said:
boredwafu said:
chieftiff said:
You've pretty much summed up the whole chain of events there, the only flaw in the logic being the fact that the FA2 was a multirole aircraft-albeit with engine issues capable of Fleet defence, the GR is a bomber with recce facility, no air attack capability whatsoever.

Interesting to note that just prior to 800 Sqdn's loss of the FA2 a bombing competition was held amongst all the Harrier Sqdns, 800 Sqdn won it by a mile against an aircraft designed as a pure bomber! Luck? Skill? capability? who knows, bloody embarrassing though for the GR7.

True, Crab accuracy has a lot to answer for - they even bombed our carrier once having missed the splash target, and didn't even have the common courtesy to apologies to those injured! (about 10years ago I think)

Yes, but sadly it was an RAF Pilot flying an RN SHAR and I think that the problem was caused by a maintainer failing to set the offset properly on the Weapons Aiming Computer. I joiuned up with the aircrewman who was badly injured and the Watch Chief is one of my best mates.

There was no maintenance error, read my response above. I also knew Nige very well, haven't seen him since the incident though and I wonder how he is getting on?
Agree with Chieftiff as I was there too watching it all happen on the radar
 
To answer the first question: I embarked in RFA Olwen in 1979 to support 4 days of NAVHARS trials with the first SHAR XZ450. We carried out 4 sorties a day and there's only one way for a SHAR to go from her deck, straight up. Mind you it had no outboard pylons or drop tanks/Pods and then only had a duration of about 25 minutes.'On another occassion during the Falklands "Do" a pair of SHARS landed one on each Fearless and Intrepid after running low on fuel. They too had only one way to go, straight up.

P2
 

boredwafu

Lantern Swinger
chieftiff said:
boredwafu said:
chieftiff said:
You've pretty much summed up the whole chain of events there, the only flaw in the logic being the fact that the FA2 was a multirole aircraft-albeit with engine issues capable of Fleet defence, the GR is a bomber with recce facility, no air attack capability whatsoever.

Interesting to note that just prior to 800 Sqdn's loss of the FA2 a bombing competition was held amongst all the Harrier Sqdns, 800 Sqdn won it by a mile against an aircraft designed as a pure bomber! Luck? Skill? capability? who knows, bloody embarrassing though for the GR7.

True, Crab accuracy has a lot to answer for - they even bombed our carrier once having missed the splash target, and didn't even have the common courtesy to apologies to those injured! (about 10years ago I think)

I know, I was there! And to be honest Flt Lt H****** was a bloody nice bloke who didn't deserve the rap for that, there was a known fault with the targeting system on the FRS 1 creating a short time delay in offsetting to the splash target when lobbing bombs, no one however deemed it necessary to tell him! He was, believe me, absolutely gutted! That being said I don't think you could knock him for his accuracy, he hit the ship bang on Juliet section, exactly where he aimed.

Edited to add: It was about fifteen years ago I think you will find!

15 years seems about right, must admit kinda get confused over the years at times!! Seem to remember that the pilot had to put in an offset to compensate for the target, and that the system in question needed to be reset airborne and the offset was omitted - could be wrong though, was on the other one at the time
 

boredwafu

Lantern Swinger
Going back to what was said earlier, the FA2 was an awesome fighter with the Blue Vixen/AMRAAM combination, but you have to remember that AMRAAM is a truly great Medium range missile, which means perfect for Beyond Visual Range (BVR), however in this day and age, getting clearance to take BVR shots is increasing difficult, particularly when most ROE tend to state the need for visual ID first. This then puts the FA2 in a close quarters fight with reliance on AIM 9L, once again a good all aspect missile but on an aircraft that isn't the best dog-fighter - damned if you do, damned if you dont!
Additionally, a lot is being said about loss of Air Defence cover for the fleet, and how the T45 is going to be the answer - lesson learnt from the Falklands - Airborne early warning is needed, ships cannot cover the skies by themselves. We have the Seaking ASaC, excellent capability but limited by being in a helicopter (height, icing etc), so where is the arguement to push Fixed Wing AEW (MASC or whatever it is being called now), which would need a Cat launch of the new carriers (unless Osprey (non-pressurized) or Merlin (God Forbid) are selected).
 

Handler

War Hero
Well 4 of the Falkland victims were shot down by cannon fire and the Herc that Ward destroyed was finished off with guns too. Mr. Sidewinder taking care of the others apart from one which finally fell to Argentine AA fire as it returned damaged.
 

boredwafu

Lantern Swinger
True about cannon fire, but that was back in the day when the winders were rear aspect only and unless visually acquired the harriers were relying on ship control for the intercept (Hence the rapid intro to service of the Seaking Mk 2 AEW). Still, the Harrier is not a dog-fighter in the modern arena.
 

Magic_Mushroom

War Hero
Bored,
I'd agree that the Blue Vixen/AMRAAM was a superb combination, but I wouldn't exactly say the FA2 was an 'awesome' fighter. It was hampered by its poor endurance and subsonic speed which limited the AMRAAMs max range and end-game manoeuvering energy when launched from the beast.

The belief that BVR shots today are unlikely due to ROE is also a misconception. Almost every western A-A kill during and since GW1 was BVR. The most recent conflict which involved western A-A kills was Kosovo where all 6 were scored BVR with AMRAAM. Modern ROE involves cues from several offboard assets, as well as the capabilities associated with modern radars and sensors.

One final point of note; the UK had the all aspect AIM-9L in the Falklands although I think all kills were rear aspect shots.

MM
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
chockhead819 said:
wait til the new carriers come with the new fighters to provide fleet cover --- yeah right, the RAF will be in charge of naval aviation before long. I underestimated the SHAR down the falklands, what will happen now if the argies try again which they are threatening Illustrious, Ark iNn refit & invinc more or less scrapped & no fighters!!
just a gloriefied crab cab & a bunch of little blues who don't want to go to sea.


It's 1918-37 all over again… and as we all know, the Royal Naval Air Service went from being at the very forefront of aviation design and tactics to ……… well, lets be kind and just say, they were not the finest of years when the sideways walking ones ran the 'Naval Air Branch' show.

An what happened then with the cutting to the bone of the RN's airpower was an interesting example of unintended consequences…

With the disbanding of the RNAS in 1918, the Sopwith Aircraft Company found itself without it's chief patron who had called for such iconic WWI designs as the Sopwith Pup, 1 1/2 Strutter, Triplane and Camel, all designs to RNAS requirement.

At the end of the war Sopwith was wound up, and it's Chief Designer, Herbert Smith, found himself without a job.

Over the seas and far away, another Navy was getting into the air game in the 1920's and needed naval aircraft.


Herbert Smith ended up working for Mitsubishi, and helped them set up aircraft manufacturing and design facilities where he designed some rather excellent fighters and torpedo bombers for them in the 1920's… and we know were that ended up.
 
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