Navy Net - Royal Navy Community

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Guardian: Our Defence Policy is caught between Pride & Guilt


War Hero
Re: Guardian: Our Defence Policy is caught between Pride & G

I wanted to hate that article as it is from The Guardian and it as normal leans firmly towards scrapping the Trident replacement but it was actually a pretty honest attempt at making the comparative decisions needed. It also brings up this reoccuring notion that it's the carriers or Trident, but not both.

I remember reading about the defence review that came before Trident was announced, there was much debate at the time about whether the cost should be borne by the RN budget, spread between the 3 services or be paid for by the government separately - the argument being that although it would be an RN operated weapon, it was not a useable asset in the normal sense and as such did not contribute to the strength of our maritime forces but rather to the national position as a whole.

The brunt of it ended up coming out of the RN budget and as such we suffered greatly in conventional areas in that SDR. The point I am getting at is if the decision on the carriers is going to take into account the cost of Trident and then be framed in terms of whether the RN can afford them rather than whether the country can afford them then perhaps less people would be so firm on the need for a Trident replacement to be submarine based.

How many people would take the carriers, the aircraft for them, and a reasonable commitment in areas like the remaining Astutes and the FSC in exchange for losing a submarine borne nuclear capability and passing that over to say, the RAF?

Hypothetical I know, but i'm curious.


I'm not so sure lonestar - like all Guardian articles it starts out well, identifies the issues, then goes back to the "standard" left-wing line - no more Trident (pronounced Troi-dent), single European force.


War Hero
angrydoc said:
I'm not so sure lonestar - like all Guardian articles it starts out well, identifies the issues, then goes back to the "standard" left-wing line - no more Trident (pronounced Troi-dent), single European force.

I do see where you are coming from and his conclusions were far from perfect, but he did seem to leave the door slightly open to not getting rid of the deterrent entirely but rather doing it cheaper (or maybe I was being too generous to the author when I read it), progress for a Guardian article.

I had always until very very recently, been completely against going for anything other than a submarine based weapon - I still am from a purely strategic sense. However if it does come down to an either or with the alternative being no carriers, no aircraft, no reasoning for future frigates to protect said carriers etc. then I am really not so sure anymore.


Lantern Swinger
Re: Guardian: Our Defence Policy is caught between Pride & G

Surely an independent nuclear deterrent is more important now more than ever with North Korea nuclear armed and Iran on the way there as the Chinese and Russians continue to sabotage any diplomatic/economic efforts to stop them. Any land based ICBM system would still cost billions and would take years to get the go ahead as they go through every court in the land as no one wants to live next to a nuclear warhead and in order to be effective as a deterrent they would need to be scattered across the country.
In regards to the carriers, Asia is going to be the centre of world events/conflicts for the next generation with Afghanistan being a 20 year job at least, Pakistan's likely to get worse before it gets better and China and India seem set for confrontation (either directly or via proxies) to determine whose the daddy in the continent. As well as that there's the Falklands ,which if oil is found in any substantial amount, will remain under threat from Argentina. So once again I'd say that the carriers are needed now more than ever so that we can project influence and if needs be force in world events.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
MoD_RSS News story: Defence Secretary announces £80m Guardian to protect the skies MoD News 0
soleil Guardian: "Ministry Of Defence Funding Research Into Online Habits" MoD News 0
soleil Guardian: Philip Hammond - "In Defence Of Drones" Current Affairs 13
soleil Guardian: "Royal Navy Sends Warship To Libya To Showcase Defence Equipment" Current Affairs 3
soleil Guardian: Sea Ceptor: "MoD Signs £500m Missile Defence Deal" The Fleet 6
soleil Guardian: "Thatcher Warned Of Defence Cuts Dangers Before Falklands War" History 0
soleil Guardian: "Ministry Of Defence Set To Cull Top Jobs, According To Leak" Current Affairs 17
soleil Guardian: "Ministry Of Defence Police Face Up To 1,500 Job Cuts" Current Affairs 6
soleil Guardian: "Defence Secretary To Warn Armed Forces Of More Pain In Coming Years" Current Affairs 3
soleil Guardian: "Defence Cuts Diluting UK Influence, Says Former Navy Leader" Current Affairs 3
soleil Guardian: "Defence Cuts: Gurkhas And RAF Take Brunt" Current Affairs 1
soleil Guardian: "Ministry Of Defence To Axe 7,000 More Civilian Jobs" Current Affairs 2
soleil Guardian: "Ministry Of Defence Loses £6.3bn Assets" Current Affairs 8
soleil Cornish Guardian "Ministry Of Defence Spends Millions On Recruitment In Wake Of Cuts" Current Affairs 5
soleil Guardian: "Liam Fox Says Defence Jobs May Be Spared If Savings Are Found Elsewhere" Current Affairs 2
soleil Guardian: "Defence Cuts Threaten Trident Nuclear Safety, Warns MoD" Submariners 0
soleil Guardian: MPs: "Gov. 'disingenuous' over defence shortfall" Current Affairs 0
MoD_RSS National Data Guardian launches public consultation about the Caldicott Principles and Caldicott Guardians MoD News 0
soleil Guardian: "Man Accidentally Ejects Himself From Fighter Jet During Surprise Flight" The Fleet Air Arm 4
soleil Guardian: "Huge UK Naval Figureheads Rescued From Obscurity To Go On Display" History 14
MoD_RSS Nick Goodwin appointed as Public Guardian MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Response to Guardian story about language learning in schools MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Press release: Dame Fiona Caldicott appointed as the first statutory National Data Guardian for Health and Social Care MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Alan Eccles to retire as Public Guardian MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Alan Eccles to retire as Public Guardian MoD News 0
soleil Guardian: " MoD Faces £21bn Budget Shortfall, Warns Spending Watchdog" Current Affairs 2
P Guardian article on the sinking of HMS Sheffield - for what it's worth History 2
D Up the creek..The Guardian on the RNR Royal Naval Reserve (RNR) 17
Good CO Women in Leadership - RN Lt (Guardian) The Quarterdeck 0
soleil Guardian: "Territorial Army Captain Resigns Over Afghanistan Book" MoD News 1
soleil Guardian: "Paint Detectives Uncover True Colours Of Nelson's Victorious Flagship" History 0
soleil Guardian: "Britain's Armed Forces: The Future Of War" Current Affairs 10
soleil Guardian: "Multicultural Britain Rejecting Foreign Conflict, MoD Admits" Current Affairs 80
soleil Guardian: "'Minister for Portsmouth' Role Created To Help City" Bases / Shore Est 11
soleil Guardian: "Armed Forces Make Over 300 Visits To UK Universities In Two Years" Current Affairs 15
sgtpepperband The Guardian: "Will Chimps Soon Have Human Rights?" Current Affairs 3
soleil "New Anti Piracy 'Guardian' Barrier Beats Royal Marines" The Corps 5
soleil Guardian: "Quay Concerns Delay Launch Of Navy Submarine" Submariners 0
soleil Guardian: "Giant First World War Gun On The Move Across Southern England This Week" History 2
trelawney126 Blow me, it's in the Guardian The Gash Barge 0
soleil Cornish Guardian: "Royal Navy To Re-Affirm Ship's Links With Padstow" The Fleet 3
soleil Guardian: "Royal Navy Sea Kings Search-And-Rescue In Action - Video" The Fleet Air Arm 1
soleil Guardian: "Sea Survival And Bird Routes: The Varied Life Of A Naval Press Officer" Royal Naval Reserve (RNR) 0
soleil Guardian: "Political Support For Afghan Campaign Has 'Departed Stage Left'" Current Affairs 11
soleil "Guardian: "MoD: Trident Submarines Cannot Be Moved From Scotland To Plymouth" Submariners 30
soleil Guardian: "We're Learning From Astute Submarine Flaws, Admiral Promises" Submariners 1
soleil Cornish Guardian: "Top Sport Award For 'Inspiration' Dale" Sports and Adventure Training 0
soleil Guardian: "Royal Navy Test Flies New Drone" The Fleet 24
soleil News Guardian: "Air Cadets Swap Skies For The Sea" Royal Naval Reserve (RNR) 0
soleil Guardian: "Vince Cable Doubts Viability Of £150m BAE Shipbuilding Project" Bases / Shore Est 0
Similar threads