Global Warming

Radio 4 Today, today: a rep of the New Local Government "think tank" suggested that wind generators and solar panels should be encouraged on private homes because it is 90% certain that global warming is due to man-made carbon emissions. Have I missed something? Has this been scientifically proven during the bank holiday weekend?
 
Viewing the fires buring in Greece last night. Poor souls!!

I was amazed at the wind turbines on the hills. One would have thought they would have solar panels on the hill sides one would. Wouldn't one.
 
D

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Guest
asst_dep_to_dep_asst said:
Radio 4 Today, today: a rep of the New Local Government "think tank" suggested that wind generators and solar panels should be encouraged on private homes because it is 90% certain that global warming is due to man-made carbon emissions. Have I missed something? Has this been scientifically proven during the bank holiday weekend?
This 'Government Think Tank'. They wouldn't happen to have shares/directorships/vested interests/being bribed by the wind turbine/solar panel industry, would they?

So, they are 10% unsure it is made by man made emissions. How much of a contribution does solar cycling, recoverey from the mini-Ice Age and the sparseness of volcanic activity contribute to this? And also, all those scary films of glaciers 'melting'. Are they not just natural calving of glaciers, which happen during the summer months of the poles? I mean, you wouldn't see TV newsteams in the winter there, would you? It's all ******* frozen solid.

As much as there is compelling evidence to support the 'environmentalists' (read - PHD-trained oddbins frantically trying to secure another research grant) there are reams of counter evidence to show the opposite. I'm not denying were are not utilising our resources to the best of their capabilities, but suggesting every household snaps up renewables at a disgustingly rich price is ******* ridiculous. For us to provide this country's energy needs now (and that is right now, not for the future) by wind power alone we would need a two and a half mile thick swathe of offshore wind turbines stood in the sea. That would look nice wouldn't it? (and by ****, the buy-in into the wind turbine market would be lucrative)

Levers
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Global Warming is bollox! It's just a natural phenomena.

Back when Julius Ceaser and his boys came on an awayday to Britain it was significantly warmer than it is now… it was a major wine and grain growing area.

And as for all this carbon dioxide?

What 4x4's was T-Rex and his mates running around in to cause his global temperatures to be more than 10 degrees hotter than the current averages?

http://www.globalwarminghysteria.com/ten-myths-of-global-warming/
 
There is certainly a lot of very dubious science backing up the tree huggers case in this, particularly when they make statements like 90% certain. The worrying thing though is that despite the bad science they could be right, and if we sit here with our thumbs in bums and minds in neutral it will be too late for us to do something. Thus I do think we should take reasonable steps to reduce our power consuption and things like low energy lights, better insulation and wind generators on houses are not daft and can be a good investment whether global warming is man made or not.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Maxi_77 said:
There is certainly a lot of very dubious science backing up the tree huggers case in this, particularly when they make statements like 90% certain. The worrying thing though is that despite the bad science they could be right, and if we sit here with our thumbs in bums and minds in neutral it will be too late for us to do something. Thus I do think we should take reasonable steps to reduce our power consuption and things like low energy lights, better insulation and wind generators on houses are not daft and can be a good investment whether global warming is man made or not.

Anyone want to estimate how much said wind turbine costs and the payback period? And likewise… how much resources and energy does it take to make said turbine?


Personally I see nothing wrong with UK Plc getting warmer!
 
I listened to that on Today as well. In addition to being a potentially good business for the windmill and solar panel purveyors, it also sounded like a Solicitor's early crimbo present. Endless arguments of who actually needs planning permission and where.

In principle, I like the idea, if the prices were more reasonable. Not for any climate threatening "greenhouse gas" reason but for the plain fact that the fossil fuel isn't going to last forever. The prospect of selling spark juice to the National Grid also appeals to me. That said, covering the place with windmills isn't as simple nor practical as it first seems.
 
Inclined to agree with you Oil_Slick. I think there has been a survey which suggests that in the average lifespan of a wind turbine(where do they go to die?) The costs are never recouped in amount of energy produced based on production and installation costs.
Like all so called green ventures, it's the taxpayers who end up paying.
And living in Scotland we are about to be surrounded by the ugly beasts
 
Oil_Slick said:
Maxi_77 said:
There is certainly a lot of very dubious science backing up the tree huggers case in this, particularly when they make statements like 90% certain. The worrying thing though is that despite the bad science they could be right, and if we sit here with our thumbs in bums and minds in neutral it will be too late for us to do something. Thus I do think we should take reasonable steps to reduce our power consuption and things like low energy lights, better insulation and wind generators on houses are not daft and can be a good investment whether global warming is man made or not.

Anyone want to estimate how much said wind turbine costs and the payback period? And likewise… how much resources and energy does it take to make said turbine?


Personally I see nothing wrong with UK Plc getting warmer!
I was quoted around a grand with a pay back period of about 5 years, which is not too bad for a domestic thing but decided to wait until the prices came down a bit as with a bit more volume the prices should start to fall significantly.

I would agree that the UK getting warmer may be a 'good thing' there is no guarantee that would happen. If the Gulf Stream fails we will get colder and wetter. For many the problems would be rising sea levels which would submerge much of London and amny other places around the world including Dinseyland in Florida, and there is the probable increase in severe weather events as well. On balance I think I will go for moving to get better weather.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Oil_Slick said:
Maxi_77 said:
Oil_Slick said:
Maxi_77 said:
I was quoted around a grand with a pay back period of about 5 years, which is not too bad for a domestic thing but decided to wait until the prices came down a bit as with a bit more volume the prices should start to fall significantly.

Anyone who was telling you 5 years was telling you very big porkies!


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/05/04/eaturbine04.xml
Perhaps not, I don't live in a large city, rather a small community close to the sea, and the net cost to me for installation was a bit over a third of the price they quoted. Any way I reckon the cost of the hardware will fall over the next few years making the whole thing more atractive.
 

The_Wonderer

War Hero
It does'nt take a genoius to work out that all this global warming bollocks is just another con by the powers that be to make even more money.

It's not as if we can control the activity of the sun anyway.

"Global warming my arse; it's f***ing freezing !"
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Maxi_77 said:
Oil_Slick said:
Maxi_77 said:
Oil_Slick said:
Maxi_77 said:
I was quoted around a grand with a pay back period of about 5 years, which is not too bad for a domestic thing but decided to wait until the prices came down a bit as with a bit more volume the prices should start to fall significantly.

Anyone who was telling you 5 years was telling you very big porkies!


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/05/04/eaturbine04.xml
Perhaps not, I don't live in a large city, rather a small community close to the sea, and the net cost to me for installation was a bit over a third of the price they quoted. Any way I reckon the cost of the hardware will fall over the next few years making the whole thing more atractive.

I reckon they 'doom merchants' will have moved onto some other 'end of the world as we know it scenario' and the issue will be moot…
 

AfterSSE

War Hero


Regardless of agendas, the fact that we are polluting the planet at an alarming rate should have us worried...and if you can't see the correlation between the two,(Pollutants=assist in=Global Warming) then what we leave behind for the next generation is going to be a huge mess....and will likely cost trillions to fix....

Short term pain for long term gain is what we should be thinking about... :thumright:
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
AfterSSE said:


Regardless of agendas, the fact that we are polluting the planet at an alarming rate should have us worried...and if you can't see the correlation between the two,(Pollutants=assist in=Global Warming) then what we leave behind for the next generation is going to be a huge mess....and will likely cost trillions to fix....

Short term pain for long term gain is what we should be thinking about... :thumright:

Pollution from Nothern Hemisphere sources has dropped dramatically over the last 25 years.

Even if UK PLc shut down tomorrow and turned off all the power stations and scrapped all the cars, China would have produced enough extra pollution in a week to cancel out any gains…


Thinkin 'we' the West can effect 'climate change' is just pissing in the wind when 2.5 Billion Indians and Chinese are industrailizing like Gangbusters.
 

skyvet

GCM
Here in Cyprus, most houses have solar panels on the roofs which heat the hot water tank. Free hot water all year round!
 
Oil_Slick said:
Pollution from Nothern Hemisphere sources has dropped dramatically over the last 25 years.

Even if UK PLc shut down tomorrow and turned off all the power stations and scrapped all the cars, China would have produced enough extra pollution in a week to cancel out any gains…


Thinkin 'we' the West can effect 'climate change' is just pissing in the wind when 2.5 Billion Indians and Chinese are industrailizing like Gangbusters.
Mind you we do need 'new' goodies to flog to them to pay for all the stuff we are buying from them. So perhaps there is good business sense in getting them onto the global warming bandwagon.
 

OSLO

War Hero
Sorry, lads and lasses, but anyone who reckons that climate change is not changing, and changing more rapidly over the last 150 years, is walking around like the Pinball Wizard - deaf, dumb and blind. The receding of glacier faces (and tails) is far in excess of the annual cycles, the receding of the polar caps is far faster and more volumous than for the last few thousand year - not a partisan opinion, scientific (and physical fact). Changes in carbon dioxide levels are cyclical, yes, based on the turning of the Earth (and corresponding summer/winter patterns in the northern/southern hemispheres), but the trend is upwards. That there is a general warming of the Earth (note: general - doesn't mean that it is hotter everywhere) is undeniable by anyone who can read a thermometer.

Where the doubt comes is in explaining the cause. Is there a correlation with human activity and industrialisation? Clearly. Is this a cause/effect relationship? (and this is where things start to obfuscate) Highly probably. Is there something greater than this that can explain things? Nope. Solar activity? Building a relationship between that and climate change is on a par with astrology.

There has been a lot of cr*p written about climate change by a) non-scientific ignoramuses who make unfounded assertions and b) those attached to the industries that will most be impacted (vastly more negatively than positively).

And let me add - I'm no greasy haired tree hugger, or one of the great unwashed. I've taken the time to go to the research papers and see the prima facia data, to see the theories and proofs thereof. I've also seen the "popular" interpretations, in the Al Gore film and the Channel 4 film. In both I noted the mistakes in the data they provided (point of order - the errors in the Al Gore film had no bearing on the results or message; the errors in the Channel 4 film were deliberately misleading the message). Am I sure that we're facing a major change in the climate on a short-medium time scale (i.e. within the next 50 years)? Definately. Am I sure that Man is the culprit? About as convinced as one can be in a mathematically chaotic system, such as climate. Do I think there is harm in "being green"? Still haven't found a single valid argument against - unless you work for a petrochemical company!
 

chieftiff

War Hero
Moderator
OSLO said:
Sorry, lads and lasses, but anyone who reckons that climate change is not changing, and changing more rapidly over the last 150 years, is walking around like the Pinball Wizard - deaf, dumb and blind.
The Earth is (probably) around 4.54 Billion Years old, that's 4540000000 years, dinosaurs first existed 250 million years ago, that's 250000000, man has been around for about 300 thousand years, that's 300000. We have kept accurate weather records since 1950, that's 57 years ago!!!! we have vague weather records since aboutt 1880 and everything before that is complete guesswork based on the diaries and weather records of farmers and monks. How typically arrogant of modern man to assume we know what's going on!!!

That being said I agree, I see no point in vandalising the planet with no true concept of consequence.
 
Whilst I agree that all reasonable steps should be encouraged to reduce CO2 emissions, what grips my proverbial is the assertion that climate change is man made. There is no incontrovertible proof that CO2 emissions are the prime cause of global warming, as there appears to be some doubt as to the effect on climate of solar activity. I find that a difficult one, as the sun is surely the reason we have any weather at all? Such a lot of the so-called science in this is pure guesswork.

People with brains the size of planets can't seem to agree on any of this, so what chance do we stand?

Simple economics tells me that, if putting a wind generator on my roof will never pay for itself in reduced energy requirement, it is a waste of money and effort. Add to that the noise increase that will inevitably come if we all have little propellers on our houses. The people of the Costa de la Luz have daubed 'No Mas Helicolas' over quite a bit of their mountainous countryside because of the incessant deep drone of the ugly monstrosities.
 
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