Get yer 'at ( politically incorrect)

[hobbit]

No doubt I will be corrected or confirmed but I understand from a somewhat dodgy newspaper the RN has a new admiral of a type unknown to me during my twelve. Berets came into being after my time, why not tams,( short for tam-o-shanter is it ) from Bonnie Scotland instead of the frog butcher's beret? Anyway will turbans become the rig in the near future and if so " off caps " should be interesting.
Spare crew FAETD

 

[Shakey]

Eh? :?

 

[higthepig]

eh? eh?

 

[Father_Famine]

No doubt I will be corrected or confirmed but I understand from a somewhat dodgy newspaper the RN has a new admiral of a type unknown to me during my twelve. Berets came into being after my time, why not tams,( short for tam-o-shanter is it ) from Bonnie Scotland instead of the frog butcher's beret? Anyway will turbans become the rig in the near future and if so " off caps " should be interesting.
Spare crew FAETD

Joined up in '72 with a lad who wore a turban, and I'm sure before I left in '95 there was an officer who wore one.

 

[Ticklertin]

Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain joined my ship in 77 when we were midshipmans training ship. I was the seaboats cox'n and he was a pleasure to instruct. No side, no bunroom snobbishness, just a willingness to listen and learn. Made a pleasant change.

:wink:

 

[andym]

"Off Turbans!Non turban wearers,turning right dismiss!Fall back in within the next half hour!"

 

[hobbit]

Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain joined my ship in 77 when we were midshipmans training ship. I was the seaboats cox'n and he was a pleasure to instruct. No side, no bunroom snobbishness, just a willingness to listen and learn. Made a pleasant change.

:wink:

Just for those confused I was referring to a newspaper comment regarding the promotion of a pakistani officer to admiral in the RN. The dodgy newspaper being the Overseas Express which seems to report a lot of negative stuff although some good news occasionally. Anyway while accepting the above quote my point is that I would have found it difficult to accept orders from a non-English person ( in the RN ) the same as I have problems with foreign doctors, lawyers and teachers. We are culturally different with sometimes widely diverse beliefs and practices and as a firm non-believer in multi-culturalism I believe it is important to retain a national identity, where all speak the same language and in general share a common way of life. Maybe this is wrong and not PC but as one who was in the mob 1952 - 1964 I find some of the changes a bit too much and when considering how long it takes to develop and form a culture chaos must reign when a number of cultures struggle for dominance in one environment. Not intentionally racist but a belief that life is easier with one set of rules and values and I liked the UK standards and way of life,

 

[hammockhead]

Well, we had English officers leading Indians and Pakistanis for hundreds of years, so it's about time the favour was returned.

 

[the_matelot]

my point is that I would have found it difficult to accept orders from a non-English person ( in the RN )(MOD Comment-Does this also refer to Irish/Scottish/Welsh?) the same as I have problems with foreign doctors, lawyers and teachers. We are culturally different with sometimes widely diverse beliefs and practices and as a firm non-believer in multi-culturalism I believe it is important to retain a national identity, where all speak the same language and in general share a common way of life. Maybe this is wrong and not PC but as one who was in the mob 1952 - 1964 I find some of the changes a bit too much and when considering how long it takes to develop and form a culture chaos must reign when a number of cultures struggle for dominance in one environment. Not intentionally racist but a belief that life is easier with one set of rules and values and I liked the UK standards and way of life

Hobbit,

I am glad you left when you left because you are nothing but a narrow minded individual with those views....

I would use stronger language than that but I'm not going to lower myself in this case.

You should be ashamed of yourself. The RN has always been proud of the fact that it employed the best person for the job irrespective of background.

 

[hobbit]

An interesting and predictable response from one who has a different view of the way the world and UK is going. I merely stated my view but clearly that is not acceptable in all areas. I too will not lower my standards as I have no wish for any aggressive style of contact. I do suspect however that I am not alone with this point of view and although I have not visited the old country for some years it seems all is not going smoothly.
During my time in the RN and UK I felt safe walking the streets and in fact anywhere . Not so now I understand from what I read and the comments I see on other websites. That being so the main thing is that you are happy with the way things are. When I was on the move to foreign places I always felt so much pleasure returning home to familiar faces and voices in the local on the streets or wherever. I suspect I would not recognise the place now and certainly would find a different RN.Oh! and I am not ashamed of anything I stated and still hold the view that we can make comment in a democratic environment. Freedom of speech it is called and if my words are properly understood they make sense I believe. Not to worry, it'll all come out in the wash,

 

[the_matelot]

I am certainly not going to disagree with you over some points of multiculturism that I find particularly difficult to swallow also (and I think we both know what they are...)

What I do find offensive is your comment as follows

my point is that I would have found it difficult to accept orders from a non-English person (in the RN)

.

Why? As Hammockhead quite correctly stated, the British Empire has been doing it for hundreds of years.

I am not English. I am Irish. Does that mean if I gave you an order, you would refuse to carry it out?

Are you a person who would struggle to obey an order from a female officer as well?

If so, there is no place for you in the RN. I couldn't give a monkeys if the person who told me to do something was purple with yellow polkadots as long as that order was legitimate and the person giving it was fit to lead.

I know where you are currently residing and it seems to me that some of their attitudes (some very right and some appalling wrong) has rubbed off on you....

RAdm Hussain RN got to where he is now by hard work and aptitude. No-one gets to 2* level simply on skin colour alone you racist [email protected] Give him the respect he rightly deserves and has earnt.

 

[Always_a_Civvy]

.......life is easier with one set of rules and values and I liked the UK standards and way of life...

Life might be easier for some but not for others. Britain has historically welcomed people from different countries and cultures and we have gained more than we have lost by doing so. Monocultural, univalue, societies, which might appear superficially attractive, are also prone to lack innovation in culture and other areas of national life, as pre-democratic Spain and pre-Garibaldi Italy demonstrate.

On the second issue, as Hammockhead and The Matelot have rightly pointed out, why is it acceptable for the English to accept orders from their own but not from others whilst at the same time having no misgivings about giving orders to non-Englishmen under their control?

I remember as recently as the late 1980s senior officers in the RN and Army arguing against promoting Britons who were from the ethnic minorities on the grounds that those under their command would not like taking orders from them & that it would undermine service morale. They put the same argument forward a few years later to oppose attempts to stop the practice of kicking gays out.

Personally I would rather take orders off an officer like Rear Admiral Hussain than from any of the English officers who tried to justify their personal prejudices by reference to alleged disintegration of discipline and morale. These prejudices meant that when the RNXS was disbanded in 1994 and I was invited to transfer into the RNR for NCS duties (my specialisation) I had to decline as I didn't want to risk being found-out and dishonourably discharged later, simply because I was gay. And Hobbit, as a gay man I surely should have a good reason to feel anxious about serving under a Muslim Admiral? :evil:

 

[CheefTiff]

Sounds like this has been quite a heated discussion. I have to agree with some areas of each point of view. I do not have a problem with obeying lawful orders, no matter the colour, creed or sexual persuasions of those issuing them.
I do firmly believe though after 11 years in civvy street that this proud country of ours has been virtually destroyed by immigrants and the idiot pc governments that we have elected over the decades.

Its our fault, we elected them and STILL we sit back and watch them throw our country down the tubes. Just the other week I had an argument with my council when a form they sent me to fill in for the electoral register ONLY gave me the option of being British or some kind of Asian, Afro Carib, Chinese etc etc. As I said to the guy, I can only tick the "Other" box and write in "English", for that is what I am, and this is my country.....So why oh why don't I feature on your F&%£ing form ???

Is there any wonder I find myself seriously considering going to live abroad now.

 

[Jenny_Dabber]

Don't really want to get into this, race is not a matter for me. It's the person that counts not what colour skin or religion they are.

If a Hindu was cast as the 1st Sea Lord, wouldn't it be down how well he has conducted his career? His personality? It is the person within not the skin.

 

[higthepig]

Whilst like Cheeftiff i feel there are points for both arguements, but i have to defend the Admiral, what does it really matter? i am certain in my own mind that he didnt get to high office just because hes a muslim, I have served with two Seikhs who wore turbans ,they were rating Aircrew on HMS Bulwark, they were leading hands ,does that mean they would have been disobeyed by your goodself?, there are good and bad in all societies, ive known some extremely bad leaders in the RN, but the RN has above all in my opinion been a very fair service, if we went down the road of english whites only, who would fight and die for us in wartime? Sometimes with prejudice we pick and choose.

 

[the_matelot]

Don't forget that during the Battle of Trafalgar, there were 18 different nationalities onboard HMS Victory.

So when has it ever been an exclusively English Navy?????

 

[Maxi_77]

Don't forget that during the Battle of Trafalgar, there were 18 different nationalities onboard HMS Victory.

So when has it ever been an exclusively English Navy?????

Just to point out to those that express concern about taking orders from non Englishpersons that if they are officers they hold like me a commision from the Queen which expresses very clearly that all should obey the lawful orders of the person holding the commission, so in effect not obeying such orders would be disobeying the Queen. Are they that disloyal?

Peter

PS I am not English eother and am proud of the fact.

 

[snapdragon]

Got to be a bite, but still. I don't like when people are given jobs/promotions to fill the ethnicity quotas which are said not to exist but actually do. But Admiral? That's a fair few promotions to have had, and i highly doubt this gentleman's got to where his is because of his ethnicity. To say that he's got there on anything but his own merit is saying the Navy's inherently racist- which i don't believe it could be. The bloke's got to be a British Citizen... so what's the worry? Different races seem to be fairly few and far between in the forces anyway, so having one Asian admiral is unlikely to cause an influx if that's what the worry is.

 

[Maxi_77]

No one should get any position for any reason other than their ability, and I agree I would not expect any one to get to flag rank without proving their ability.

Peter

 

[Booty_Cdt_Sgt]

I hope that the Navy does not have quotas, and I'm sure that the Admiral would be insulted to think that he got there because he is a Muslim. The Navy has always been a route to move up on ability, when the Army was filled with men whos parent's had bought their children commissions, the Navy took on ability. (And went on to beat the French and Spanish and Trafalgar!)

"Positive" Discrimination is still Discrimination, and does not help anyone, from what I read that Admiral has got his head screwed on properly, so good on him, let him show that Navy only accepts Quality, regardless of Colour, its orientation or gender.