Galaxy 20-2010 - RN Recruiting from the offical source

Discussion in 'Joining Up - Royal Navy Recruiting' started by Guns, Sep 29, 2010.

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  1. Guns

    Guns War Hero Moderator

    Dear all, have cleared this within NCHQ and feel this needs a wider distribution.

    The telephone number in the Galaxy is wrong so please note the new number.

    Please can everyone spread the message and ensure that incorrect information in the press is countered.

    GALAXY (Galaxy is a Navy wider internal communications note) 20/2010


    The Armed Forces constantly keep manpower numbers under review to ensure we have the right number of people with the right skills to do the job. In terms of management, the total numbers of people in the Services are capped, and amongst other manpower ‘levers’ recruitment is adjusted to balance those leaving. In the current economic climate fewer people are choosing to give up a naval career, and the Naval Service is now at the highest level of manning in many years.

    Because of this, we have reduced the number of recruits entering the training organisations and in some cases delayed the start of individuals’ new entry training to avoid very small class sizes. The Royal Navy has not frozen recruitment and is always seeking enthusiastic, determined and committed young people to fulfil challenging roles.

    Despite what you may have read in the media recently, HMS RALEIGH continues to be the Royal Navy's largest training establishment in the South West. Phase 1 New Entry Training continues up to and including 28 November 2010. Specialist Phase 2 training continues in areas such as submarine operations, seamanship and logistics. New Entry recruits joining on 28 Nov 2010 will move to Phase 2 during Feb 2011. Following the short pause in New Entry intake between November 2010 and March 2011, Phase 1 Training New Entry recruits at HMS RALEIGH will recommence on 1 May 2011.

    At BRNC Dartmouth, officer training will continue with slightly reduced numbers. The standard entry of 144 cadets will be reduced to 96 for the January intake.
    With the Recruiting Offices reporting a sudden marked decline in applications in the past week, it would be very helpful if all serving Naval personnel were to reinforce this message : Naval training and selective recruitment continues. There are still many rewarding career opportunities available, particularly in the Naval Engineer and Submariner categories and in the Royal Marines.

    Recruits who have been given a delayed start date should contact 0845 607 55 55 if they have any further questions.

    Guns (with his grown up NCHQ Staff Officers Hat on)
  2. That sounds a wee bit desperate. Now don't tell me someone made a cock up on the recruiting front and there'll be a shortfall of two carrier crews and ten escort crews in a couple of years time. Now that would make I larf! 8)
  3. You're making the assumption that there'll be 2 cariers and 10 escorts in a couple of years. :(
  4. Guns

    Guns War Hero Moderator

    It was introduced as media reporting had given people the impression that we had stopped recruiting. This will have the effect of people not considering walking through the door of the AFCO. We are still recruiting but we are managing that recruitment against manning requirements.
  5. fails_as_is

    fails_as_is Badgeman Book Reviewer

    That's too right. We're embarking on the graduate recruiting round next week and I guarantee that people will be surprised to find out that we are recruiting still. The truth of the matter is that we are in manning balance overall, but remain critically short in some areas. Forecasts are that WE officers will be a critical shortage category for this year's graduate round, and it remains difficult to fill RM Officer batches for Lympstone, despite the fact that RM other ranks is very healthy.

    Twas ever thus...
  6. Why is this, in your opinion, fails_as_is?
  7. fails_as_is

    fails_as_is Badgeman Book Reviewer

    The WE recruiting problem has many dimensions. First of all I think is one of perception of the branch. It's fairly easy for people to understand what a Marine Engineer's responsibilities would be on board a ship or submarine, or what the Air Engineer Officer's job entails. WE is not so easy to get across, or for people to even think of as a potential career. Once we get over that barrier, it's finding people with suitable qualifications who don't get employed by civvy companies either in engineering or another sector, and them meeting our eligibility criteria, let alone getting through RT, medical, PJFT and sift through to AIB. That and the fact that notwithstanding the openings we have for Jan 2011 at BRNC for WEs, the recruiting process takes on average 12 months. When graduates leave university they don't expect to have to wait another year to start their employment, so this is yet another way we lose potential joiners. There is work in place to address all of these issues.
  8. WEs are particularly employable outside of engineering; I was a WE UCE, and I had several milkround companies offering to pay back all that I owed to the RN on the basis of projected earnings for the company.

    The lack of CEng status will also deter potential "proper" engineers, which was pointed out when SARTOR3 (Standards and Routes to Recognition 3) came in to effect. Some RN Engineering courses (MESM is the obvious) provide the right level of academic training, however the RN chose not to suitably amend their other SEMCs to make them the required standard.

    Whilst there are some routes in-service to address the CEng thing, they are badly advertised, and you can't access them without some severe arm-twisting of the Career Manager. As ever, the needs of the service will over-ride any personal desires.....
  9. fails_as_is

    fails_as_is Badgeman Book Reviewer

    Alfred, are you aware of the streamlined route to IEng and CEng for WEs through the IET? To be accredited IEng, all you would need to provide as a WE officer would be your charge certificate and on selection for Lt Cdr, attend a Professional review providing your evidence of experience to be accredited CEng. You still have to pay the fees yourself, but initial registration with the engineering council fees can be claimed back through Standard Learning credits. No further academic training is required since the IET recognise the level of professional training WEs receive in service and the rigour of the Charge board and experience gained to be selected for a charge job.
    The DIN has been reissued in the last couple of weeks and can still be found in the what's new pages of defence intranet.
  10. I was aware, however it is only recently that this has been available to us. More to the point, it's not well sold on the RN recruitment page: "During your career, you’ll also have the chance to become a Chartered or Incorporated Engineer". Moreover, it's not in big, bold letters on the front page of the Engineering, or WE recruitment pages. I suppose it depends on where you want to draw your Engineers from - if you want to fish in the same pond as the milkround (generally Russell Group or 1994 Group), then you will have to match at least some of their offers. Whilst I appreciate that we can't go for pay, we should be screaming out that we'll make you CEng in "x years".

    This is an age-old argument, and one I doubt that will be effected by RR, but then we have lots wrong with (some) of our recruitment and retention....
  11. fails_as_is

    fails_as_is Badgeman Book Reviewer

    Starting pay for sublieutenants fares very favourably against the majority of other graduate employers and with the £12k joining bonus on offer it's an extremely attractive pay and benefits package.
    I agree that recruitment and retention is an unwieldy and difficult beast to tame, and I doubt will ever be resolved satisfactorily. Sadly there are a lot of market variables at play and the RN is often not flexible enough to adapt to these. That and the result of SDSR and the inevitable cuts to the non-frontline activities, means that an effective recruiting strategy will doubtless be crippled by under-resourcing...
  12. Fails - it's not about starting pay, in fact I think we should lay off the pay aspect in our recruitment. Goldman Sachs were offering me low to mid 6 figures after 6 years, and we'll never match that. What we should be doing is exploiting the other bits of our package to draw people in.

    Negative PR around defence procurement has skewed the perception of Engineering in the Forces full-stop, so we need to demonstrate the leadership and management parts of being an Officer.

    The fact we are short of Engineers shouldn't be used as an excuse to lower standards* on entry. Indeed, we should be saying that we are only willing to take the top "blah" percent who apply to us, and we can't promise you'll pass our training.

    Major carrots - MSc and CEng, or other equivalents - should be promised, and that promise upheld for those who sign up.**

    In all, we should be raising the bar and expectations, not racing to the bottom in an attempt to get bums on seats.

    *It will, I know it will, and don't think to deny it.
    ** The needs of the service excuse is wearing a little thin for my epoch of Engineers, and directly contributable to a couple of them leaving.
  13. In regards to WEO. What are the promotion prospects like, and how does the job role change as you gain promotion? Obviously more of a managerial role comes with promotion in general (i'm presuming), but for someone looking at WEO as a prospective career choice i'm concerned as to how tall the ladder is for WEOs and if that ladder is greased at all.

    I've searched the forums, and the only indicator as to promotion timescales for WEOs I could find, was 9-12 years from lt to lt-cdr. I've no idea as to the accuracy of this statement though, but it does seems like a long time.

    Are there that many promotion slots generally available to WEOs and engineer officers in general?

    Is there any route to the admiralty or even captaincy without having the warfare background?

    I agree with alfred_the_great in that military pay will never be able to compete with commercial payscales and I don't think many people looking to join the engineering officer roles weigh it too heavily, at least I don't.
  14. exbuzz

    Would you be able to apply now and potentially start in January, if you had the opportunity?
  15. Unfortunately i'm still not finished my degree (mechanical engineering), so I would be in no position to apply. If I was in a position to apply I would seriously consider it.
  16. Fair enough. There's a special campaign on at the moment to recruit for a next January start, so I thought I'd ask you, just in case.
  17. Right. Here we go....

    The two highest ranked WE Admirals we have are Rear Admiral Hussain (Director (Precision Attack)) at DE&S and Rear Admiral Alabaster (FOSNNI); you can look up their CVs on the web. The highest ranked WE Officer in recent times was Vice Admiral Peter Spencer, who became 2SL, and then Chief of Defence Procurement.

    From this, it is obvious to see that you can go (nearly) all the way as a WE, however, there is typically 1 Admiral from each entry at BRNC, so the odds are long, regardless of your source branch. Technically, a WE could become 1SL or VCDS and then to CDS, but I suspect it'll be quite a while before either happens. This is the way of the world, join up and you can join me in agitating for change!

    As for promotion below the lofty heights of 1SL: promotion is within branch to Cdr RN, and I think to Capt RN. Beyond this, promotion is into certain jobs, some of which are tagged to specific competencies (i.e. Com(Ops) has to be a Submariner who has also driven a Surface Ship), others are more generic (FOSNNI is a good example of this).

    Promotion within branch is controlled by various measures, which are decided by a Capt RN (in consultation with NavSec)*. These include age profile of the branch, numbers of vacancies (which may be affected by other branches), forecast size of the branch etc etc. Your promotion board will consist of Officers at least 2 ranks senior to your current rank, all of whom will receive a copy of your P Pack (and everyone else's), which contains all of your reports, course reports and anything else pertinent (Court Martial reports, citations for Honours and Awards). Each board member will rank everyone in order, and these will be recorded by the Board President. Then, effectively, a general order of merit will be decided, and then the top x (x = number of Officers required) will be selected. There are several things that could change this, but generally you don't need to worry about this.

    Going to the specifics of the WE Branch; promotion to Lt Cdr can be quite slow, but promotion to Cdr can be relatively quick. This is a generic, broad brush appreciation of the stakes, but will always be affected by the reality of you and your cohort.

    Moving onto the job of a WE. As you get more senior, you can typically expect to do less and less engineering and more and more general management. This may change as the implications of Haddon-Cave work the through the system. I know that quite a few more AE jobs have been created within the Military Aircraft Authority.

    If you've got any questions, feel free to fire them back down the bearing!

    *To assure you all, the Capt RN who fills this post is actually in his last job, and cannot be considered for any further promotion.

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