Fortieth Anniversary Of The Attack On The USS Liberty

hobbit

War Hero
PartTimePongo said:
Hobbit,

The 2 arguments bear no relevance. I thought external observers were able to confirm the Kursk loss was a result of a fish cooking off?

Liberty was callously and cynically attacked. The fact there still has been no closure for the crew is an absolute disgrace.

Without intentionally being difficult I disagree with your comment ' no relevance ", presumably forums permit this level of discussion . While the cover up of the Liberty was obvious, and as you say disgraceful in that the crew were allowed no closure , my point was the possibility of a similar ' cover up' with the Kursk . The facts given leave some un-answered questions I believe and given the facts of the Liberty my point regarding the bare-faced disregard for what could be classed as murder makes any attack or ' accident ' suspicious in regard to ' official ' response . With such a deliberate attack as the Liberty one can only wonder what the hell sort of ' leaders ' we have with their inaction .
 

Karma

War Hero
safewalrus said:
the sad thing is that if expediency needs it..

Can't remember where I read it, may have been the Biog of Stewart Menzies, but during WWII there were enigma decrypts which indicated that a wolfpack had been advised of the location of a convoy travelling near the Canaries. The decision was made not to deal with the wolfpack, and not to warn the convoy, in order to protect the knowledge that enigma could be decrypted.

What would you have done?
 

Bergen

ADC
Karma said:
safewalrus said:
the sad thing is that if expediency needs it..

Can't remember where I read it, may have been the Biog of Stewart Menzies, but during WWII there were enigma decrypts which indicated that a wolfpack had been advised of the location of a convoy travelling near the Canaries. The decision was made not to deal with the wolfpack, and not to warn the convoy, in order to protect the knowledge that enigma could be decrypted.

What would you have done?

Do what Churchill did when he offered Coventry up as a sacrifice to protect Enigma. Then fire-bomb Dresden in revenge. It's why the two cities have been twinned for so long.


The US Liberty incident happened 40 years ago. This is the UN report of the Israeli artillery attack on the UN Fijian camp at Qana. The Israeli excuses echo the Liberty event.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/62d5aa740c14293b85256324005179be?OpenDocument

RM
 

Karma

War Hero
Bergen said:
Do what Churchill did when he offered Coventry up as a sacrifice to protect Enigma. Then fire-bomb Dresden in revenge.

What price revenge though, another example of real-politik and faced with those decisions I'm not convinced I could look at myself in the mirror afterwards.

I know it's something that almost all of us have thought about at some point or another, but I'm very glad that I've never had to test myself in that way.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
The basic lies in the Israeli story…


Between 11.00 and 12.00, Israeli Navy HQ received reports that El Arish was being shelled from the sea…

At 12.05, the IDF despatched 3 MTB’s from Ashdod (some 70 miles away), south to El Arish to investigate…

Thoughout the run to the south, the IDF MTB’s remained in radio contact with both the maritime reconnasance aircraft off El Arish and the IDF jets sent to deal with the ‘attacker’…

On arriving at the scene. the IDF claim the commander of the MTB’s identified the ship as the Egyptian ‘El Quesir’ and reported her speed as 30 knots heading south…

Well here we have the first major ‘anomaly’… the IDF are now reporting that the ‘El Quesir’ was doing 30 knots, they would know perfectly well from the copy of Janes they had used to ‘ID’ the ship that the ‘El Quesir’ could barely do 10 knots with a following wind…

It took 2 hrs 15 minutes for the three MTB’s to get from Ashdod to the postition at which they started the attack at 14.20

Now, the IDF did overfights of the USS Liberty at 0515, 0850, 1030, 1056, 1126, 1145, 1220, and 1245 and positively ID’d her as the USS Liberty, GTR-5, heading NWN at 5knots.

So, we have two further overflights of USS Liberty at 12.20 and 12.45 which radiod her position to the IDF HQ and were being monitored by the ships sailing south.

Any Officer on a boat heading into action will be plotting the reports from his Intel assets as to the ships in the vacinity, if he wasn’t running a plot he would not know were he was going or where his ‘target’ was!

Now here we have the rub, the IDF claim a ship was shelling El Arish between 11.00 and 12.00… yet, we have IDF recon flights passing over that area at 10.56, 11.26, 11.45 and they do not rport any vessels in the area except the USS Liberty due south of and heading towards El Arish at a leisurely 5 knots

So here we have it…

The IDF are overflying the area of interest all morning and reporting no vessel in the area except USS Liberty, even during the alledged shelling of El Arish, further IDF overflights report no other ship in the area except USS Liberty and continue to correctly ID her and report her position, track and speed…

AFTER the IDF despatch 3 MTB’s to see off the ship ‘attacking’ El Arish, two further overflights of the area only report one ship in the area and correctly ID her yet again as the USS Liberty and give her position and speed… these last two overflights are being monitored by the 3 MTB…

At the time of the last overflight, the 3 MTB’s would now be around 45 miles from the USS Liberty’s last reported position and heading south at 30 knots directly towards her.

So, they knew were she was, they knew her speed, they knew they were directly heading towards her… yet! We are expected to believe that less than 30 minutes later as they came with radar range of the USS Liberty, the Captains of all three MTB along with the pilots of the Mirages all had a collective brainfart and ‘forgot’ they had been given a running commentry of the track and position of the USS Liberty and further, we have to accept that as part of this collective ‘brainfart’ they all now ID the ship, (in the position they were being told the USS Liberty was and chugging along at 5 knots), as the ‘El Qesir’ and she’s doing a quite amazing 30 knots to the south!

Presumably, the ‘El Quesir’ was fitted with some über tactical cloaking device that allowed her to opearate all morning off El Arish and remain invisible from the IDF maritime reconnasance aircraft while at the same time making the USS Liberty ‘dissapear’ off the plot on the 3 MTB’s and cause all the pilots and Officers of the planes and MTB’s to forget they had been receiving a running report all morning of the USS Liberty that put her where she was ultimately attacked.

And then after the attack on the USS Liberty, we are now expected to believe the IDF took no further action to track down the ‘real’ ship that they claim was ‘shelling’ their troops!
 

Bergen

ADC
Oil_Slick said:
The basic lies in the Israeli story…


Between 11.00 and 12.00, Israeli Navy HQ received reports that El Arish was being shelled from the sea…

At 12.05, the IDF despatched 3 MTB’s from Ashdod (some 70 miles away), south to El Arish to investigate…

Thoughout the run to the south, the IDF MTB’s remained in radio contact with both the maritime reconnasance aircraft off El Arish and the IDF jets sent to deal with the ‘attacker’…

On arriving at the scene. the IDF claim the commander of the MTB’s identified the ship as the Egyptian ‘El Quesir’ and reported her speed as 30 knots heading south…

Well here we have the first major ‘anomaly’… the IDF are now reporting that the ‘El Quesir’ was doing 30 knots, they would know perfectly well from the copy of Janes they had used to ‘ID’ the ship that the ‘El Quesir’ could barely do 10 knots with a following wind…

It took 2 hrs 15 minutes for the three MTB’s to get from Ashdod to the postition at which they started the attack at 14.20

Now, the IDF did overfights of the USS Liberty at 0515, 0850, 1030, 1056, 1126, 1145, 1220, and 1245 and positively ID’d her as the USS Liberty, GTR-5, heading NWN at 5knots.

So, we have two further overflights of USS Liberty at 12.20 and 12.45 which radiod her position to the IDF HQ and were being monitored by the ships sailing south.

Any Officer on a boat heading into action will be plotting the reports from his Intel assets as to the ships in the vacinity, if he wasn’t running a plot he would not know were he was going or where his ‘target’ was!

Now here we have the rub, the IDF claim a ship was shelling El Arish between 11.00 and 12.00… yet, we have IDF recon flights passing over that area at 10.56, 11.26, 11.45 and they do not rport any vessels in the area except the USS Liberty due south of and heading towards El Arish at a leisurely 5 knots

So here we have it…

The IDF are overflying the area of interest all morning and reporting no vessel in the area except USS Liberty, even during the alledged shelling of El Arish, further IDF overflights report no other ship in the area except USS Liberty and continue to correctly ID her and report her position, track and speed…

AFTER the IDF despatch 3 MTB’s to see off the ship ‘attacking’ El Arish, two further overflights of the area only report one ship in the area and correctly ID her yet again as the USS Liberty and give her position and speed… these last two overflights are being monitored by the 3 MTB…

At the time of the last overflight, the 3 MTB’s would now be around 45 miles from the USS Liberty’s last reported position and heading south at 30 knots directly towards her.

So, they knew were she was, they knew her speed, they knew they were directly heading towards her… yet! We are expected to believe that less than 30 minutes later as they came with radar range of the USS Liberty, the Captains of all three MTB along with the pilots of the Mirages all had a collective brainfart and ‘forgot’ they had been given a running commentry of the track and position of the USS Liberty and further, we have to accept that as part of this collective ‘brainfart’ they all now ID the ship, (in the position they were being told the USS Liberty was and chugging along at 5 knots), as the ‘El Qesir’ and she’s doing a quite amazing 30 knots to the south!

Presumably, the ‘El Quesir’ was fitted with some über tactical cloaking device that allowed her to opearate all morning off El Arish and remain invisible from the IDF maritime reconnasance aircraft while at the same time making the USS Liberty ‘dissapear’ off the plot on the 3 MTB’s and cause all the pilots and Officers of the planes and MTB’s to forget they had been receiving a running report all morning of the USS Liberty that put her where she was ultimately attacked.

And then after the attack on the USS Liberty, we are now expected to believe the IDF took no further action to track down the ‘real’ ship that they claim was ‘shelling’ their troops!

The attack on the Liberty was just a small lie contained within the bigger lie of the entire 6 Day War. For a long time I believed the version of plucky Israel surrounded by the Muslim hordes until I figured out that the entire war was a land grab by Israel and never was the preventive strike that Israel claimed it to be.

I visited the Mitla and Giddi Passes and saw what the IDF had been up to there and everywhere in the Sinai were stories of how the Israelis had butchered POW's. The IDF was in the process of machine-gunning unarmed Egyptian POW's in Sinai at the same time as the attack on the Liberty was going on. It was amazing how the Western Press were spinning the stories and burying the truth from the British public.

Here is another post-Liberty report. It is from the chief counsel to the US Navy's Court of Inquiry.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claim by insider: LBJ covered-up truth about Israel's attack in '67 on USS Liberty
Source: HNN Staff (6-8-07)

The chief counsel to the Navy's Court of Inquiry into Israel's attack on the U.S. Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty in 1967 repeats in today's edition of the San Diego Union a charge he first made in 2004 that Lyndon Johnson ordered a cover-up of the truth.

The Liberty was attacked on June 8, 1967 during the Six-Day War. 34 sailors died and 172 were injured. Israel claimed it was an accident. But in an op ed today Ward Boston Jr. says "I know from personal conversations with the late Adm. Isaac C. Kidd – president of the Court of Inquiry – that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity.' "



Ward goes on to say:


For decades, I have remained silent. I am a military man, and when orders come in from the secretary of defense and president of the United States, I follow them. However, attempts to rewrite history and concern for my country compel me to share the truth.
Adm. Kidd and I were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy's official investigation, though we both estimated that a proper Court of Inquiry would take at least six months.

We boarded the crippled ship at sea and interviewed survivors. The evidence was clear. We both believed with certainty that this attack was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.

I am certain the Israeli pilots and commanders who had ordered the attack knew the ship was American. I saw the bullet-riddled American flag that had been raised by the crew after their first flag had been shot down completely. I heard testimony that made it clear the Israelis intended there be no survivors. Not only did they attack with napalm, gunfire and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned at close range three life rafts that had been launched in an attempt to save the most seriously wounded.

I am outraged at the efforts of Israel's apologists to claim this attack was a case of “mistaken identity.†Adm. Kidd told me that after receiving the president's cover-up orders, he was instructed to sit down with two civilians from either the White House or the Department of Defense and rewrite portions of the court's findings. He said, “Ward, they're not interested in the facts. It's a political matter, and we cannot talk about it.†We were to “put a lid on it†and caution everyone involved never to speak of it again.

I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent to Washington. I know this because it was necessary, due to the exigencies of time, to hand-correct and initial a substantial number of pages. I have examined the released version of the transcript and did not see any pages that bore my hand corrections and initials. Also, the original did not have any deliberately blank pages, as the released version does. In addition, the testimony of Lt. Lloyd Painter concerning the deliberate machine-gunning of the life rafts by the Israeli torpedo boat crews, which I distinctly recall being given at the Court of Inquiry and including in the original transcript, is now missing.

RM
 

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