Food Charges and PAYD

Red_Robbo

Newbie
I have just returned from a weekend’s training and had my first experience of pay as you dine. I have been in the RNR a while and until now have never had to pay food charges. The regular’s get their annual increments, pensions, rail cards and a whole host of other benefits. As reservists we get a tax free bounty (for which I am extremely grateful) and until now free food. The cost for the standard payd menu was £4.00 per day. Whilst this may not sound a lot, that is a cost that was not previously paid and is taken from post tax income. For an AB on around £40 per day that’s the equivalent of a 12.5% pay cut. Or put it another way, on a 12 day course it means now giving up 1.5 days pay to cover food that was previously given for free. The government even charges VAT on the payd charges. Last year the £3.25 TEA went, this year free food. I wonder what is next?

Is this the diabolical liberty it first seems or are others more relaxed about it?
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Red_Robbo said:
I have just returned from a weekend’s training and had my first experience of pay as you dine. I have been in the RNR a while and until now have never had to pay food charges.
Hmm, sounds like you're a little out of touch! PAYD was introduced to many establishments some time ago; all (non-seagoing) personnel in those establishments pay it, regardless of whether they are RN/RNR.

Red_Robbo said:
The regular’s get their annual increments...
Yes, you're right! And I am so glad I don't get paid the same today as I did when I joined up in '86! It's called inflation, mate. Also our incremental pay increases (iaw "Pay 2000") is based on time in the rank, in date for RNFT, professionally qualified to hold the rank and other criteria. Your reservist pay is also increased accordingly; however, whatever pay your earn from your 'day job' is down to you and is of no consequence to us.

Red_Robbo said:
...pensions...
No! We get a pension when we leave?! Wow... and I thought I was doing this job for Queen and Country! :roll:

Red_Robbo said:
...rail cards...
Not had a free HM forces railcard for many years; we also pay for these too (like every other BR customer), and these have increased in cost. I believe they were £2 for some time, then increased to £10, and are now £12 pa. Incidentally, our travel warrants allowance has decreased, and there are only certain people eligible to use them, unlike several years ago when we all had them and could travel to any nominated address. I presume you live relatively near your RNR base? Well not everyone in the RN is that fortunate...

Red_Robbo said:
...and a whole host of other benefits.
Like what? Please elaborate. You mean like being deployed away from the UK for the large majority of the year? Being shot at? Not receiving the correct NHS medical care if we are injured in a war zone? I assume you refer to financial 'perks' then. Well, as of last year LSSB was binned, and we now qualify for LSSA, to bring us in line with the Army/RAF. This is based on operational service (i.e. sea time), however it is only awarded when the ship is deployed away from the base port, for period of 10 days or over. And you no longer receive it if you are living on board while the ship is alongside, so you are no better off than someone living ashore in barracks.

Red_Robbo said:
As reservists we get a tax free bounty (for which I am extremely grateful) and until now free food.
Tax free bonus? Well suck it in; we don't. We get bonuses at 4.5 and 7.5 years, but these are taxed considerably, so are more of a 'comfort allowance' rather than a nest egg.

Red_Robbo said:
The cost for the standard payd menu was £4.00 per day. Whilst this may not sound a lot, that is a cost that was not previously paid and is taken from post tax income. For an AB on around £40 per day that’s the equivalent of a 12.5% pay cut. Or put it another way, on a 12 day course it means now giving up 1.5 days pay to cover food that was previously given for free.

So finally you get to get to the brunt of your self-perceived argument, so allow me to comment. "Free food"? No such thing; never has been. Who do you think pays for it? Pusser. And have you ever been into a half-empty Dining Hall for breakfasts/dinners and seen trays of uneaten food? It is wasted, but still costs money. Would you not rather they used that money to buy decent equipment for it's personnel? And you quote £4.00 per day - I think that is very good value for money; show me a restaurant where you can get three hot meals a day for that. And is eating in the Dining Hall compulsory? No; if you don't like it then live/eat out. And if you cannot afford £4.00 per day on an ABs wage then I suggest you consult a financial adviser. Or pull your finger out and get your Rate!

Red_Robbo said:
The government even charges VAT on the payd charges. Last year the £3.25 TEA went, this year free food. I wonder what is next? Is this the diabolical liberty it first seems or are others more relaxed about it?
I sympathise; it's a shame, innit? Fancy those nasty Treasury people charging us tax for things we eat and use..! Well can I make a little suggestion? If you want to make a worthwhile contribution to the defence of the nation then you have to put your hand in your pocket now and again. If you don't like it then submit your notice and make way for someone who isn't a social leech and demands free handouts every two seconds.

:evil:
 

itsamuppet

Lantern Swinger
I May be wrong, but if your away from your home unit on a 2 week course, I think your entitled to some payment towards the food(not sure).

Weekends we always try and get bag meals as we are usually away from base or working through.

If you don't like having to pay then you can always go to sea, its still free there. or better still join the Sea Cadets they don't have to pay and they get all the new kit before we do.
 

Andy_Pandy

Midshipman
Red_Robbo said:
I have just returned from a weekend’s training and had my first experience of pay as you dine. I have been in the RNR a while and until now have never had to pay food charges. The regular’s get their annual increments, pensions, rail cards and a whole host of other benefits. As reservists we get a tax free bounty (for which I am extremely grateful) and until now free food. The cost for the standard payd menu was £4.00 per day. Whilst this may not sound a lot, that is a cost that was not previously paid and is taken from post tax income. For an AB on around £40 per day that’s the equivalent of a 12.5% pay cut. Or put it another way, on a 12 day course it means now giving up 1.5 days pay to cover food that was previously given for free. The government even charges VAT on the payd charges. Last year the £3.25 TEA went, this year free food. I wonder what is next?

Is this the diabolical liberty it first seems or are others more relaxed about it?
So who pays for your food when you are at your civvie job??

This was probably one of the "perks" that we lost as a result of PAYD because previously the RN had no way to charge us for food whilst in course. The RN were having money deducted from the their pay for food anyway so were paying for fodd regardless of whether they ate in or not.

I don't have aproblem with it - was a bit confusing to start with - bowl of cereals, coffee and a yoghurt was more expensive than a full english!!
 

Bisley

War Hero
while away training you are entitled to £5 a day incidental exspenses. So that should cover your daily scran bill. Claim it all back on wonderful JPA :thumright:
 

dogwatch

Badgeman
Personally can't see the problem PAYD was long overdue. As previously stated you can claim up to £5 IE's so whats the problem.
No wonder the RN don't have a particularly sunny attitude towards the RNR.
 

icantfly

Lantern Swinger
sgtpepperband said:
Red_Robbo said:
The cost for the standard payd menu was £4.00 per day. Whilst this may not sound a lot, that is a cost that was not previously paid and is taken from post tax income. For an AB on around £40 per day that’s the equivalent of a 12.5% pay cut. Or put it another way, on a 12 day course it means now giving up 1.5 days pay to cover food that was previously given for free.

So finally you get to get to the brunt of your self-perceived argument, so allow me to comment. "Free food"? No such thing; never has been. Who do you think pays for it? Pusser. And have you ever been into a half-empty Dining Hall for breakfasts/dinners and seen trays of uneaten food? It is wasted, but still costs money. Would you not rather they used that money to buy decent equipment for it's personnel? And you quote £4.00 per day - I think that is very good value for money; show me a restaurant where you can get three hot meals a day for that. And is eating in the Dining Hall compulsory? No; if you don't like it then live/eat out. And if you cannot afford £4.00 per day on an ABs wage then I suggest you consult a financial adviser. Or pull your finger out and get your Rate!
The difference is that when you're on £42/day as an AB, that's just under £30/day after tax and then you're down another £4 just to eat.. It's hard to do when you're used to getting that amount per hour in civvy street and are, in effect, earning nothing for two weeks. There's a difference between working for very little and working for nothing at all.

As for getting your Rate up, it's impossible. I should have made LH seven years ago - I have the reports, but those who are able to do four to six weeks a year are always going to be put up before those of us who can only do the required two weeks due to work and family committments.

I had to deal with PAYD at York the other week whilst up there for the day. All I wanted was a salad sandwich, but could only have one thing on it - I chose letteuce. For the cheese and onion and cucumber I wanted, I had to pay extra for it. In the end, my simple sandwich was more expensive than buying it in the middle of London.

PAYD may help the regs save money as they don't always take meals, but the RNR is down even more because we choose to take the meals, and won't eat the tiny little portions that they try to fob off on us..
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
icanfly: Please read the the whole of my post and then ascertain whether I (and presumably the rest of the regulars) will have any sympathy with that; life isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. It was about time the RNR realised that... :roll:
 
sgtpepperband said:
Red_Robbo said:
I have just returned from a weekend’s training and had my first experience of pay as you dine. I have been in the RNR a while and until now have never had to pay food charges.
Hmm, sounds like you're a little out of touch! PAYD was introduced to many establishments some time ago; all (non-seagoing) personnel in those establishments pay it, regardless of whether they are RN/RNR.

Red_Robbo said:
The regular’s get their annual increments...
Yes, you're right! And I am so glad I don't get paid the same today as I did when I joined up in '86! It's called inflation, mate. Also our incremental pay increases (iaw "Pay 2000") is based on time in the rank, in date for RNFT, professionally qualified to hold the rank and other criteria. Your reservist pay is also increased accordingly; however, whatever pay your earn from your 'day job' is down to you and is of no consequence to us.

Red_Robbo said:
...pensions...
No! We get a pension when we leave?! Wow... and I thought I was doing this job for Queen and Country! :roll:

Red_Robbo said:
...rail cards...
Not had a free HM forces railcard for many years; we also pay for these too (like every other BR customer), and these have increased in cost. I believe they were £2 for some time, then increased to £10, and are now £12 pa. Incidentally, our travel warrants allowance has decreased, and there are only certain people eligible to use them, unlike several years ago when we all had them and could travel to any nominated address. I presume you live relatively near your RNR base? Well not everyone in the RN is that fortunate...

Red_Robbo said:
...and a whole host of other benefits.
Like what? Please elaborate. You mean like being deployed away from the UK for the large majority of the year? Being shot at? Not receiving the correct NHS medical care if we are injured in a war zone? I assume you refer to financial 'perks' then. Well, as of last year LSSB was binned, and we now qualify for LSSA, to bring us in line with the Army/RAF. This is based on operational service (i.e. sea time), however it is only awarded when the ship is deployed away from the base port, for period of 10 days or over. And you no longer receive it if you are living on board while the ship is alongside, so you are no better off than someone living ashore in barracks.

Red_Robbo said:
As reservists we get a tax free bounty (for which I am extremely grateful) and until now free food.
Tax free bonus? Well suck it in; we don't. We get bonuses at 4.5 and 7.5 years, but these are taxed considerably, so are more of a 'comfort allowance' rather than a nest egg.

Red_Robbo said:
The cost for the standard payd menu was £4.00 per day. Whilst this may not sound a lot, that is a cost that was not previously paid and is taken from post tax income. For an AB on around £40 per day that’s the equivalent of a 12.5% pay cut. Or put it another way, on a 12 day course it means now giving up 1.5 days pay to cover food that was previously given for free.

So finally you get to get to the brunt of your self-perceived argument, so allow me to comment. "Free food"? No such thing; never has been. Who do you think pays for it? Pusser. And have you ever been into a half-empty Dining Hall for breakfasts/dinners and seen trays of uneaten food? It is wasted, but still costs money. Would you not rather they used that money to buy decent equipment for it's personnel? And you quote £4.00 per day - I think that is very good value for money; show me a restaurant where you can get three hot meals a day for that. And is eating in the Dining Hall compulsory? No; if you don't like it then live/eat out. And if you cannot afford £4.00 per day on an ABs wage then I suggest you consult a financial adviser. Or pull your finger out and get your Rate!

Red_Robbo said:
The government even charges VAT on the payd charges. Last year the £3.25 TEA went, this year free food. I wonder what is next? Is this the diabolical liberty it first seems or are others more relaxed about it?
I sympathise; it's a shame, innit? Fancy those nasty Treasury people charging us tax for things we eat and use..! Well can I make a little suggestion? If you want to make a worthwhile contribution to the defence of the nation then you have to put your hand in your pocket now and again. If you don't like it then submit your notice and make way for someone who isn't a social leech and demands free handouts every two seconds.

:evil:
Can you opt out of this PAYD if you for instance have your own home to return to each day, bringing along any food you want to work. Is it literally what the initials stand for on a meal by meal basis.
If my addled memory serves me right then yonks ago, even if you had your own place, you had money taken out for board and lodging regardless. If you were on a shore based draft that is.
Seems a bit fairer now and there must be a lot of people with their own property.
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
PAYD is exactly that; victualled personnel pay as they dine. RAs who are not entitled to victualled meals on board provide their own meals, although as already stated, you can claim for additional non-receipt expenses (up to £5 per day) on JPA.

It was introduced, I believe, because Caterers were having to provide meals for all VMs ashore, regardless of who actually came into the Dining Hall. For example, an establishment has 200 personnel so the Galley cooks 200 meals, however only 100 turn up; potentially meals for 100 are wasted. In reality this did not happen like this, as Caterers could 'predict' the daily victualling states from the S71. So they received the budget for 200 personnel but cooked say, 150 meals, thus saving the allowance for 50 personnel. From this additional fund came things like steak nights, Christmas meals, etc.

I do agree that PAYD is a good thing; other companies don't provide free meals so why should the RN?
 

Chaz

MIA
sgtpepperband said:
PAYD is exactly that; victualled personnel pay as they dine.
But can pay for a 'casual' meal if they elect to do so. This was also the case before PAYD.

I believe the only difference between a VM and an RA now is that the VM has accom on the establishment. An RA can have PAYD daily should he choose to do so.
 

sgtpepperband

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Chaz: You are correct; sorry for not making myself clear on the procedure. Victualling cards are still issued to eligible personnel so RAs who wish to eat on board can annotate their details on the appropriate log when they arrive at the Servery.
 

Karma

War Hero
sgtpepperband said:
I do agree that PAYD is a good thing; other companies don't provide free meals so why should the RN?
Notwithstanding all of the above I think there is a perceived issue over value for money, which I think that icantfly is alluding to above. Personally I'd agree that PAYD is the way ahead, as long as the contracts are adequately defined and contract management is in place to assure that it is adhered to.

Given my more recent experiences in Wardrooms I wouldn't be confident about any of that.
 

Uncle_Albert

War Hero
Bisley said:
while away training you are entitled to £5 a day incidental exspenses. So that should cover your daily scran bill. Claim it all back on wonderful JPA :thumright:
I quote, as of April 2006:

"3. Incidental Expenses; up to 5 pounds per day, replacing Personnel Incidental Expenses and Mess Incidental Expenses. Covers expenses incurred when staying overnight in a hotel or temporary service accom. Limited to laundry/dry cleaning, a three minute phone call and a newspaper. Keep receipts for 12 months."

To use this allowance for food would be fraud. Best of luck.
 

icantfly

Lantern Swinger
sgtpepperband said:
icanfly: Please read the the whole of my post and then ascertain whether I (and presumably the rest of the regulars) will have any sympathy with that; life isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. It was about time the RNR realised that... :roll:
Oh, I entirely agree with you on that; both you and the regulars are right from your point of view. However, this problem is an RNR one, not an RN one.

The people I know are getting a little sick of working for a daily rate that is becoming less and less every year. We now have to pay for the food that we didn't have to a year ago. We're told that we have to turn up to duty stations several hundred miles away, but have to pay for the transport costs in advance and then argue for months just to claim them back.

For example, I drove from Hampshire to Faslane in April. I didn't fly as they wouldn't give me the flights I needed, instead telling me to take even more time off from work which wasn't possible with my employer. They authorised me to drive, approving both the car and the mileage in advance, and then argued for two months before finally paying me. I was down almost £200 during that time.. and another £100 for meals off of the duty station as I was duty driver for enough days that I barely ate at Faslane. Even though that was authorised in writing by the officer-in-charge, it took three months and a lot of emails before I was reimbursed.

My point is - yes, this is no different from how the regulars have to operate, but we're not regulars. The bounty is meant to be an incentive to stick around, but when JPA takes several months to pay you at the wrong rate, and then takes it all back instead of just giving you the extra £200 they owe you.. when we're consistantly not paid for three months at a time.. when we have to argue for every single penny.. it's no wonder that we get a little pissed off at having to pay for our own meals from a daily amount that we likely won't see for several months after the course has finished.

They say that recruitment and retention is a big thing right now, so why have they dropped the recruitment budgets by 75% for some units? As for retention; it is any wonder people are leaving? It may sound unfair to the regulars, but there is no incentive to stay any longer.
 

Bisley

War Hero
Uncle_Albert said:
Bisley said:
while away training you are entitled to £5 a day incidental exspenses. So that should cover your daily scran bill. Claim it all back on wonderful JPA :thumright:
I quote, as of April 2006:

"3. Incidental Expenses; up to 5 pounds per day, replacing Personnel Incidental Expenses and Mess Incidental Expenses. Covers expenses incurred when staying overnight in a hotel or temporary service accom. Limited to laundry/dry cleaning, a three minute phone call and a newspaper. Keep receipts for 12 months."

To use this allowance for food would be fraud. Best of luck.
Very good UA i can quote JSP7** as well :dwarf:

couple of points receipts have to be kept for 24 months. iaw with JSP7**
and who said say it was food on the receipt?? oh what receipt damn couldn't get one. Oh well fill out a Non availabilty certificate. And yes i have been audited by the jpa powers that be and NAC's are very acceptable currency :thumright: :thumright:
 

Uncle_Albert

War Hero
I can get a non-availability of receipts form? Ace.

Never read this JSP of which you speak; I'm quoting a UPO, and it is over a year old now.
 

Bisley

War Hero
Uncle_Albert said:
I can get a non-availability of receipts form? Ace.

Never read this JSP of which you speak; I'm quoting a UPO, and it is over a year old now.
Arrrrrrh!! The words UPO :toilet: and advice. Something that sends shivers down my spine ^_^; You cant beat walking into the UPO and seeing so many writers put their heads praying not be asked a question. Bless them :money:
 

soontobe

Midshipman
Re: Food Charges and PAYD DogWatches comments

I agree with what dogwatch has said about these comments that they dont show the RNR in a good light but do not tar all RNR's with the same brush as we do not tar all Matelots with the same brush.
I am a serving member with the RNR and have never had any problems with paying for PAYD.
 

Red_Robbo

Newbie
I suppose it shows just how careful you have to be when compiling messages. This is primarily an RNR issue. I made reference to the employment benefits of the RN not to comment on the RN terms but merely to highlight that there are differences between the RN and RNR respective terms of service. The point I was raising is that under my terms of service I did not use to pay food charges. From this year I do, which is an effective pay cut. If any other employer tried that, to that extent, it would probably be an issue that eventually gets resolved in an employment tribunal. Couple that the with those loss of the TEA, that an AB is paid less than the minimum wage even if you divide the wage by just 7 ½ hours, the subsidy that many now contribute to the training and travel budget and I can understand why retention is a problem. To answer a point made earlier, yes people are leaving or choosing not to re-engage and it is not “good riddanceâ€, but “what a shameâ€.

Incidentally I do not get annual increments, inflationary pay rises yes, but not annual spine point increases. And most civilian employers do pay for travel and food whilst travelling away on work’s business.
 
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