Discussion in 'The Fleet Air Arm' started by Chewy, Sep 21, 2007.
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Anyone had any experience of the AET fast-track board?
At what stage, i only now of people who have been fast tracked from being top of class at Sultan and then loaded onto killick course which has been about a year from finishing part 4(or whatever its called now).
I do not beleive Navy has much need to fast track from killick to PO, there is probably enough very good people who are awaiting selection. But it would be nice to see some young guys get fast tracked to show how the system could work if you have the ability.
It would be intresting to hear if anyone beleives that they have been fast tracked from killick to PO under the new system.
There are currently about 8 LaET's on PO's course who have come through the fast track system from their LH's course. They sohould be out in the fleet between Nov this year and April next year. After that the course is changing so i don't know what'll be happening then, but can only imagine there are lots of lads waiting for courses since they were suspended earlier this year.
Thats good its happening.
Do you know how long they waited between killicks course to POs course.How fast is it.
Current record is abot 3 years, but bear in mind there wasn't a course to attend for most of that. Don't know what the current wait is.
I believe the plan is thus: Fast tracked from Killicks course, reduced time frame to achieve CCSAM (6 months), straight on for a frontline tour circa 24 months and back for the 6 month PO's course. Then complete task book submit to Kingston and Sultan and be awarded Foundation Degree, eligible for promotion to CPOAET........
This is by no means firm as we are all awaiting the release of the DIN which may confirm this.
So its not really fast, it would be good if it was down to a year i reckon.
I disagree, the speed a fast tracked AET can get to LAET is currently under 4 years from joining, add to that the prospect of PO 1 year later and you open the possibility for 21 year old PO's. They may know their job but there's a lot of growing up to do in order to take on the wider leadership responsibilies. 3 Years to PO from L/H is nothing to drip about, ask the guys who have been in for 10 to 15 years!
I'm a bit long in the tooth but in my day the normal age for a tiff to be rates second class (petty officer) was about 21. For some reason there was a rule that mechanics could not be rated Leading hand until the age of twenty years and six months.
This was supposed to ensure that the LH was mature enough to hold the rate. For some reason I believe that this age rule only applied to the fleet air arm.
I knew a number of good PO tiffs and mechanicians who never picked up their buttons. They had to do a fleet board, which seemed to only take a limited number of applicants. Once again I never saw this being applied to general service tiffs and mechs.
It's a proper left hand/ right hand situation with the PO's course at the moment. The school aren't totally sure what to teach, as they don't know how the POAET will be employed. The sqaudrons don't know how they will employ a POAET, as they don't know what they will have been taught. Admin is a real biggie, with the school saying that a POAET may get auth level F, but then again maybe not.... Comms anyone?
I just reckon if your top dog should realy be able to get there faster.For the last many years we have had young PO tiffs so why not some young POAET.
Slim, the problem is that tiffs made up a relatively small part of the workforce, their knowledge was balanced by the mechanics experience. As it is fast tracks are very common, even those who aren't fast tracked are being promoted very quickly because of the current output. An AET on fast track does exactly the same courses as an AET not on fast track, there are effectively no apprenticeships anymore merely a foundation degree. A great deal (nearly all) of the skill of hand training has been rationalised (that's management speak for removed) on the basis that people will learn those skills in the field, however they are just not getting the time to actually do that.
I'm not a fan of the new system, I believe it's short sighted and has been put in place to merely fix a current problem rather than develop the branch or its people.
All I hear about the new system makes me believe that training has been cut back to save money. It looks as if any major problem now involves sending for a civilian expert, who in all probability is an ex senior rate wafu of the old school.
Tiff and mechanician training was possibly the finest in the country. Mechanics were well trained and an squadron could deploy knowing that virtually every problem could be resolved by the senior rates possibly with the assistance of AED workshops.
So have we gone from having an extremely well trained lower deck to a lower deck of quick fit fitters, petrol pump[ attendants and greasers?
We are on the same wavelength, I don't actually believe you can overtrain your workforce. However "new" thinking is that you only need to train people to do what they will actually do (which would infer that we know what they are going to do) It will go pear shape and undoubtedly training will be reviewed again. I have been consulted on most of the new training philosophies including those for JSF/JCA, there's a lot of emphasis on knowledge, theory and technology with little on the practical skill of hand, needless to say the people thinking these schemes up are not mechanics, fitters or even technicians they are often educators with good intent.
Does seem to be a bit of a mess at Sultan.
Not heard that there auths are any different to any POAET/AEA/AEM that are working at mr is this going to change??
I see nothing really wrong with new system as yes it does give guys more hands on work which surely is better, though i admit im sad that the Artificer is no longer.
I just cant see how its good to keep so many different names techs /tiffs/mechs when everyone does same job on shop floor and most drafts can be done by any.
In the old days Tiffs and mechs were interchangeable for drafting purposes, though on the mechanical side the Tiff was the fitter and turner and the mech the sheet metalworker.
POAF of any trade frequently carried out the same job as a tiff or mech of the same rate, though on a small ships flight the R1 would always have a CPOAEA(R) as the SMR likewise with the L1 and M1 if a mechanic would be on a flight where the SMR was of the same trade.
This was to compensate for any weaknesses which may occur.
As for training, the old routine was to train to one level above that at which you were expected to work.
Thus an LREM(A) would be trained to printed circuit board level and a POREL(A) to component level of fault finding and rectification.
See PM mate
On the subject of Artificers, I spent four years in a classroom and learned some really in-depth technical/academic stuff during that time. Post apprenticeship, I was on the Lynx circuit where I spent most of my day ordering stores, fixing Suvival Equipment, pulling flight deck nets up/down, rusting and dusting and other menial tasks. So the apprenticeship was a waste of time really when you look at the job role of an R1 on a small ships flight. I left after 10 years.
However, since leaving the RN I have been involved with the Apache and the latest Lynx helicopters which are very hi-tech and the knowledge gained from my apprenticeship was vital. Also being an ex tiff opened one door, which then led to another and so on and I now get paid a lot of money for what I know rather than for what I can do so I cannot complain about my apprenticeship, and it was a fantastic time living out around Lee on Solent, just like being a student except they paid us good money.
I joined the RN at 16 and so was a micky mouse PO at 21, I will never forget the Cdr on divisions during POLC trying to give me a bollocking for not getting my GCB sewn onto my No1's, the whole class chuckled when I explained that I had not been in the Navy long enough to get one Sir.
The level F is only for specifying independents nothing else. This includes POAEM's as well. I remember when JAP's came out with this and the AEO's went mental. PO's specifying i dont think so :whew: . Only CPO's who have passed a board will be authorised. Roll the dice and see what comes up jumped to mind :thumright:
The fast track system and the AET Stream is fatally flawed at the moment, the whole purpose of the system appears to be tailored to getting supervisors on the cheap. There are currently AETS back on LAET course after only 2 years in the Navy and they STRUGGLE!!!
Fleet won't give authority for LAETS or POAETS to even coordinate job cards related to the most simple operations, although JAPS gives you that power they simply don't appear to trust them!!! contrary to RAF policy which has given rise to interesting debate. And the caveate to allow LAETS to become supervisors without restriction is again flawed based on the fact that competence is based on theoretical knowledge and EXPERIENCE! all defined by JAP. Firstly the LAET is no longer trained in fault diagnosis so how the heck can they be competent? it beggars belief. When you think that Artificers spent nearly 2 years learning in depth systems knowledge how can an LAET be adjudged as having the requisite skills necessary for complex fault diagnosis? The AEM would have served his time therefore demonstrating a high degree of experience with some AEMs demonstrating exceptional system knowledge but earnt over time.
No matter how clever you may think you are there is no way you can teach experience! Most squadrons appear to have lost the art of continuation training based on high op tempo and manning issues, couple this with a rapidly diminishing experience base, the mentors that where there previously are rapidly becoming extinct. It was a SAD day when they got rid of the Artificer, the quick fit fitter analogy is on the money, but with increased reliance on Contract Logistic Support it appears that's what our lords and masters want.
It's all very frustrating and sad to see
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