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Faraday Programme , CIS & ET(WE)

The Army have kept the separate operator and maintainee model. I.e. Royal Signals Comms Sys Operator and Comms Sys Engineer. Different training and qualifications for entry.

Indeed. And a whole host of special PDs to reflect that their old model is under stress from things like cyber, Land EW, SFCs, etc, which don't nicely fit into "operator"/"maintainer" dichotomy.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Bascially, there was a good idea (and at least some of it was a good idea) and tried to merge WE and CIS together. Only they didn't do their homework, made some massive assumptions and presumed everyone would be cool about it.

But now, instead, you've got a situation where two people can be doing exactly the same job, but on different pay scales, with utterly different chances of promotion etc. As you can imagine, this hasn't gone well, and lots of people are very threaders. But I'd suggest CIS and WEs are the current crisis of the week, which is good (everyone is finally trying to work out how to make it work) and bad (there's a reason they're in crisis).

CIS is great fun, and I have a lot of time for them (no comms, no bombs!), but the transfer hasn't served them well. I'd re-state that my personal option - if I were joining as an AB - would be to go either CT or Aircrewman....


Sorry @alfred_the_great you're way behind the curve and at risk of doing the branch dis-service and harm.

The integration of CIS into WE is complete. What has materialised for a lot of valid reasons is a position whereby the transition training can't be fully delivered so a sensible stance has been taken to revert to the separate training schemes for the next 3-5 years. With work oncoming to look at quicker ways to deliver targeted CIS training.

The pay issue is massively complicated by NEM which has pay reviews in 5 yearly cycles but West Battery are confident if they can develop a solid argument they should be able to try to get an earlier settlement.

One of the biggest challenges is the sheer pace at which CIS develops. Already what they thought a CIS would look like 2 years ago is unlikely to be realistic. The MDT set up to look at this is hence looking far further.

A very recent UK 'tour' has explained this to serving WE/CIS in great detail. Until implications and a way ahead are decided I doubt anything will be passed to the recruitment force.
 

Nohope

Newbie
"A very recent UK 'tour' has explained this to serving WE/CIS in great detail." I think no one I've ever spoke to thought that the recent road show was any good. It was tosh and they even said they didn't have a clue what was going on in faslane one. It's been a total disaster from start to whatever there calling it now. Just wait till all the RO's find out there new WE trained reliefs have been bined and streamed SWS or WE instead.
 
Sorry @alfred_the_great you're way behind the curve and at risk of doing the branch dis-service and harm.

The integration of CIS into WE is complete. What has materialised for a lot of valid reasons is a position whereby the transition training can't be fully delivered so a sensible stance has been taken to revert to the separate training schemes for the next 3-5 years. With work oncoming to look at quicker ways to deliver targeted CIS training.

The pay issue is massively complicated by NEM which has pay reviews in 5 yearly cycles but West Battery are confident if they can develop a solid argument they should be able to try to get an earlier settlement.

One of the biggest challenges is the sheer pace at which CIS develops. Already what they thought a CIS would look like 2 years ago is unlikely to be realistic. The MDT set up to look at this is hence looking far further.

A very recent UK 'tour' has explained this to serving WE/CIS in great detail. Until implications and a way ahead are decided I doubt anything will be passed to the recruitment force.

That may or may not be true, but I have ABs putting their notice in, and two LHs being paid vastly different sums due to a failure to produce the correct courses. This despite promises the courses would've been ready 3 years ago.

It is another example of change being over-promised and under-delivered.
 

FunkyJunky

War Hero
Sorry @alfred_the_great you're way behind the curve and at risk of doing the branch dis-service and harm.

The integration of CIS into WE is complete. What has materialised for a lot of valid reasons is a position whereby the transition training can't be fully delivered so a sensible stance has been taken to revert to the separate training schemes for the next 3-5 years. With work oncoming to look at quicker ways to deliver targeted CIS training.

The pay issue is massively complicated by NEM which has pay reviews in 5 yearly cycles but West Battery are confident if they can develop a solid argument they should be able to try to get an earlier settlement.

One of the biggest challenges is the sheer pace at which CIS develops. Already what they thought a CIS would look like 2 years ago is unlikely to be realistic. The MDT set up to look at this is hence looking far further.

A very recent UK 'tour' has explained this to serving WE/CIS in great detail. Until implications and a way ahead are decided I doubt anything will be passed to the recruitment force.
how on earth can those at the top expect someone to be trained (and then competent) in the engineering role of the job, hands in the kit, power supplies and defect rectification to managing the MCO, parts of ship, setting up complans, thinking about frequencies and such like. to then talking IP addresses, networking and various levels of IS administration.

why is there no specific IT role within the RN. Just utterly bizarre on why the Navy push back on this.

as said above, you have the CIS group on board. split down the middle on different pay levels but expected to do (pretty much) the same job. I remember all of this was brought up at various forums not many years ago, so it cannot be a surprise

It is all just plain weird and no wonder people are saying no thanks
 
I think there is probably a lot of mileage of bringing EW/CIS/CT and probably HM into a single branch that is neither Warfare or engineering.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
"A very recent UK 'tour' has explained this to serving WE/CIS in great detail." I think no one I've ever spoke to thought that the recent road show was any good.

Well the 50+ WE/CIS that I see daily and the people in Devonport and Faslane were all positive. The Navy has been upfront, it tried something, it didn't work out for a variety of reasons but it's still moving ahead to integrate WE/CIS and SUY(C).

Change is never easy and trying to do this with NEM in the background and changes in the training estate, on top of equipment programmes stuttering all over, made it what it was

The fact that a lot more attention is being put on this and a lot of group of JR/SR are being included I see as a positive.

Better to look forward and try to make it better.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
I think there is probably a lot of mileage of bringing EW/CIS/CT and probably HM into a single branch that is neither Warfare or engineering.

Dont agree with that. The IW programme has superficially looked at an IW cadre or branch. The are some synergies between HM and EW in so far as they generate anf consume intelligence product's but I'm not convinced CIS/WE are in a similar vein. CIS/WE are more enablers.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
how on earth can those at the top expect someone to be trained (and then competent) in the engineering role of the job, hands in the kit, power supplies and defect rectification to managing the MCO, parts of ship, setting up complans, thinking about frequencies and such like. to then talking IP addresses, networking and various levels of IS administration.

why is there no specific IT role within the RN. Just utterly bizarre on why the Navy push back on this.

I don't think anyone at the top of the Navy had that view partly because the way we're working had changed quite a bit over the last few years and is still changing.

If you look at the trials of Jackdaw/NSOIT and use of MDG on OCEAN, even some aspects of LC2, the capability far outstrips what we teach at CWD but a lot of people don't appreciate that. If you move away from C2 to the MCO there's increasing use of SDR and that's changing the skills needed.

One of my personal problems is that we're looking at people and training them for current capability whereas I believe we should be looking a minimum of 15 years ahead as there are potentially some pretty big EP changes that will mean we have to rethink what maintainers/operators do afloat.

One of the issues we'll face and Faraday has, is how do you train effectively and still maintain output to the fleet because if I sat down and scribbled what I think LH/PO/CPO could/should do, the courses would be huge.

It's not easy
 

Nohope

Newbie
If the navy is so upfront about what's going on I'm sure they will quickly explain why the people on the WESMCIS courses at the moment have been forcibly streamed SWS and TWS instead.
 

XCrabFat

Midshipman
Blimey I started something here but a very interesting read, thanks. I'm sure you could fit in a few more abbreviations though ? :eek: ;)

Going back to my lad though, if he were to take up the offer of becoming CIS would he be an Operator or Operator/Maintainer ? Also with the branch amalgamation would there be scope to move across to WE, if so at what stage ?
 

AB111

Badgeman
Blimey I started something here but a very interesting read, thanks. I'm sure you could fit in a few more abbreviations though ? :eek: ;)

Going back to my lad though, if he were to take up the offer of becoming CIS would he be an Operator or Operator/Maintainer ? Also with the branch amalgamation would there be scope to move across to WE, if so at what stage ?
I think the gist of it is that it's all very fluid right now, with no clear distinction between operator/maintainer, as it's like trying to hit a moving target, because things are developing so quickly, with a lot of beaurocratic constructs dragging along too. So I THINK the answer right now is: "a bit of both". But I'm not in the RN, so I hope the others will reply. But I'm grateful you started this thread, as I'm thirsting for knowledge on how the current CIS is. It seems like it's a good branch for a lot of reasons, but despite everything I've read, it's not so clear in what you do and how it's separate from others. I also don't think you can simply change roles. But I do know that you can transfer from Surface Fleet CIS to Submarine CIS, but not back, if that's of any interest.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
Blimey I started something here but a very interesting read, thanks. I'm sure you could fit in a few more abbreviations though ? :eek: ;)

Going back to my lad though, if he were to take up the offer of becoming CIS would he be an Operator or Operator/Maintainer ? Also with the branch amalgamation would there be scope to move across to WE, if so at what stage ?

So....

WE and CIS Are as of now integrated. CIS is in the WE branch.

In the next 3-5 years approx, he will be streamed as an operator (CIS) or maintainer ETWE.

There may be some opportunities for a small cohort to cross train in the period and help inform the future branch BUT that's not yet fully endorsed.

The pay issue is being looked at and an evidence pack being prepared for The Navy to present to MoD/HMT and try to get approval for the right SUP inside the 5 year cycle.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
If the navy is so upfront about what's going on I'm sure they will quickly explain why the people on the WESMCIS courses at the moment have been forcibly streamed SWS and TWS instead.

That's a different issue entirely?; not an SM but all I can guess is it's needs if the service/numbers to gaps/posts.
 

pompeyexpat

War Hero
If the navy is so upfront about what's going on I'm sure they will quickly explain why the people on the WESMCIS courses at the moment have been forcibly streamed SWS and TWS instead.

Can I ask where you got this information from? I have some small involvement in WESM(CIS) training and that's news to me.
 
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Nohope

Newbie
A mate of mine joined as CISSM and they have been forcibly streamed SWS instead (along with the other 7 in his class). And before we get into the needs of the service rubbish CISSM is the worst manned branch in the submarine service after sonar.
 

wave_dodger

MIA
Book Reviewer
A mate of mine joined as CISSM and they have been forcibly streamed SWS instead (along with the other 7 in his class). And before we get into the needs of the service rubbish CISSM is the worst manned branch in the submarine service after sonar.

I have to say you do come across as being especially negative.

'Needs of the service rubbish' - the Navy doesn't exist to do you favours. I'm not going to say it gets everything right but it's trying and putting a huge amount of effort in multiple areas.

There are lots of complex issues out there.
 
A mate of mine joined as CISSM and they have been forcibly streamed SWS instead (along with the other 7 in his class). And before we get into the needs of the service rubbish CISSM is the worst manned branch in the submarine service after sonar.

Sorry to burst your bubble but maintaining CASD(N) is the number one priority for the RN. Funnily enough, the SWS department maintain and operate the Trident Weapon System, without them CASD would not be possible.

So yes, the needs of the service do take precedent.
 

pompeyexpat

War Hero
A mate of mine joined as CISSM and they have been forcibly streamed SWS instead (along with the other 7 in his class). And before we get into the needs of the service rubbish CISSM is the worst manned branch in the submarine service after sonar.

At what point in their training were they 'forcibly streamed', and when did this happen? It sounds like an incredibly simplistic decision to have made. If nothing else, there is a different RT score required for WESM as opposed to CIS.

Please don't think I'm suggesting you're lying, but I would like to get to the bottom of this as it's the first I've heard of it. Before I ask questions when I go back to work, I'd like to have something more substantive than 'somebody on the internet said'.
 
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